[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Christianity

[Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren@ebox.tninet.se>]

Hi Dirk,

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> 
> > As I remarked above the conversion to Catholicism brought the 
> Gothic > > ethnicity in dissolution and  Gothic landowners made
often common > sake > > with Roman landowners against the Visigothic
king and this resulted > in > > internal warfare and a weak kingship
following the papal dictates > via > > the councils of Toledo. 

> Hmmm, for me this explanation is too simple. The Visigothic elites 
> had quarreled among each other for many decades prior to their 
> conversion to Catholicism. They had regularly killed their kings  and 
> each other and Arianism was no obstacle to that.

Then they all the time worked within the Gothic community and for
Gothic interests. There  were allways other Goths ready to take over
instead of, as in this case, Romans and later also Arabs. They lost
the needed unity to stand strong towards outer enemies.


> There was no longer a remaining Gothic identity 
> > and so the realm was chrushed by the Arabs bringing back a little 
> > religious  tolerance once again. 
> 
> 
> I see this differently. I think the Visigoths had from the outset 
> failed to create an integrated strong kingship as did the Franks in 
> Gaul. So when the threat of Arab invasion arrived their were not many 
> willing to fight for this kingdom. Also, you could argue that the 
> cruel measures against the Jews and other groups had given the fading 
> Visigothic kingdom a new lifeline. These measures brought great 
> wealth into the coffers of the state, as can be seen by the very 
> large number of coins in the name of Sisebutus and Suintilha. These 
> kings used the money to reestablish Visigothic control over the whole 
> peninsula, pushing out the last Byzantine strongholds.

This sounds frightening similar to the confiscation of Jewish property
in Germany  during the Third Reich. I think their motivation was 
quite similar. It just shows  the aims of the later Visigothic kings
were very shortsighted and desperate. Had they preserved their Arian
unity, before the pope got involved, they would have had no need for
such confiscations and also not have had to face the Jews as a fifth
collon in alliance with the Arabs. Now this alliance was the only way
for the Jews to be freed. The confiscated property had earlier worked
to help the Gothic economy to flourish by supporting a working
commercial infrastructure.
 

> Very true, Vandalic Arianism was not a bit tolerant, which shows that 
> tolerance was not inseperably linked to Arianism and especially was 
> tolerance not linked to Germanic ethnicity. What mattered were 
> political concerns, which determind the course of action. 

Arianism is not tolerant in original shape but Germanic Arianism was.
If of political or other reasons may be discussed. The Germanic
background of fornsiðr gives them  a natural tolerance in religious
matters anyhow and this is also noticed in Germanic Arianism. Of
course politics allways override religious tolerance since all
religion is in the bottom a way to manipulate people for politiical
reasons by leading/controlling groups.

 
> Something similar can be 
> > said later of the Normandic kingdom of Sicily that immediately was 
> > attacked by the pope and finally chrushed in a so called crusade in 
> 1266 > > like the poor Cathars and Albingenses.
> 
> Surely, this Normannic kingdom was not Arian, and the war that was 
> waged against it was not really religious. 

No, I never wrote they were Arians but just a parallel in tolerance.
Their churches also included Moslem and Mosaic and even Fornsiðr
symbols, and they practized total freedom of religious belief and
honoured objective science. Among else the most highstanding medical
high schools of that time. The pope meant them to be heretics and he
indeed waged a "crusade" against them.


Best greetings
Ingemar
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ingemar Nordgren, Ph.D.
Sjögrässtigen 15
SE-533 73 KÄLLBY
46-510-541851




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