[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[george knysh]

--- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at smra.co.uk>"
<dirk at smra.co.uk> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I would have a real problem with this notion of
> tens
> > > of thousands of
> > > Heruls migrating to Thule. Firstly, a tribal
> army of
> > > that time
> > > consisted of up to 3000 - 5000 warriors.
> >
> > GK: That is what the "Illyrian" Heruls
> > (survivors of both the Lombard and later Roman
> alleged
> > near total slaughters) are recorded as able to
> field=
> > 3000+1500.
> >
>
>
> That is not a strong argument I am afraid. Procopius
> (and other
> ancient authors) regularly inflates the numbers of
> armies, often by
> the factor of 10. See for example Procopius' account
> of the attack
> of the Anglians on the Warnians. Thus, these numbers
> given for the
> Herulic contingents were likely inflated as well.

*****GK: I don't think Procopius would have  bothered
to write so much about an insignificant group fielding
only 300+150 warriors. I'll stick with the figures
3000+1500. The Heruls were after all much closer to
Constantinople than the Angles and Warnians. And just
because there are inflations in one instance doesn't
mean that there must be in all.******

> Also, the number
> of the entourage of Datius, which he sets at 200 is
> no doubt vastly
> exaggerated and based on other ancient authors who
> give such a
> retinue to kings of great significance.

*****GK: Well if Datius was in Procopius' eyes a king
of great significance why shouldn't he have had the
appropriate entourage?*****
>
>
>
>
> >  The Goths
> > > and Franks had
> > > more smaller peoples had less. However, as a
> general
> > > estimate this
> > > number will be about right. Procopius tells us
> that
> > > most of the
> > > Heruls were killed by the Langobards.
> >
> > GK: I wouldn't attach a great deal of
> > significance to this "most of". This is clearly a
> > hyperbolic overestimation. Procopius then tells us
> > that one group of survivors trekked to Rugiland,
> then
> > near to the Gepids, then across the Ister, after
> > which, again, they were "mostly" slaughtered by
> the
> > Romans. And yet the descendants of this second
> > slaughter were subsequently able to field a total
> of
> > 4500 warriors.
>
>
>
> Again, there is very little reason to believe those
> numbers. If they
> were still 4500 warriors strong at that point they
> would have had an
> extremely strong army, which did not have to take
> abuse and rape by
> the Gepids, or which had to starve in Rugiland.

*****GK: Unless the Gepids had a vastly stronger army
of course, which they doubtless had.*****

 Such
> an army would
> have posed a very serious threat to any of the
> surrounding kingdoms.
> The fact, the the Heruls vanished as an
> independently ruled people
> indicates that their army really was decimated
> greatly, and that
> they simply cannot have consisted of 'tens of
> thousands' of people
> who trekked north to the end of the world.

*****GK: Just because the Heruls chose not to have
kings at certain points in time does not mean that
they were not "independently ruled people". Here's my
mathematics: focusing just on the figures and
statements made by Procopius, if the Heruls of 500 AD
were a strength of a factor of 100, and "most" were
killed by the Lombards, this would leave approximately
a factor of 20 surviving. Of these a factor of 10
moves to Scandinavia and a factor of 10 eventually
crosses the Danube. Of the latter "most" are
slaughtered by the Romans. Which leaves us a factor of
2 able at one point to field 4,500 warriors. On this
computation those trekking to Scandinavia would have
been much more numerous. But I decided to take
Procopius' "most" as about 1/2, and concluded very
reasonably that the Scandinavian trekkers would have
had an army about twice the size of that of the
Illyrians. Add to that wives, children and old folk
and you get some tens of thousands on the move. Not as
much as the hordes of Radagaisus or the various
contingents fleeing before the Huns.******
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >  From
> > > Cassiodorus we know that
> > > parts of the survivors fled to Italy, and
> Procopius
> > > added that those
> > > who sought refuge among Gepids and than Romans
> were
> > > in no state to
> > > oppose anybody. In fact, the mere fact that they
> > > were too weak to set
> > > up an independent kingdom shows that the
> remaining
> > > Heruls after 508AD
> > > will not have been a large people.

******GK: There were a number of independent Herulian
political formations after 508, and while not equal to
the more successful Germanic states, they certainly
were not as insignificant as you imply. They were a
kind of middle power, comparable, say, to independent
Slavic tribes, or to lesser Germanic groupings.*******

> >
> > GK:  the Heruli seem to have had a kind of
> > "anti-monarchic" disposition at various moments of
> > their history.*****
>
>
>
> Actually, I think that yours is not a good argument
> either. Surely
> the group that tried to establish itself first in
> Rugiland and
> secondly near the Gepids was eager to establish some
> sort of
> independent kingdom. Those attempts clearly failed,
> because they
> were too weak. All they could set up was a federate
> kingdom on Roman
> territory.

******GK: Well they tried. And later some of them
allied with the Gepids. The larger group that trekked
northward was more successful, at least for a time.
They had about 40 years of independence in Scandinavia
(compared to the 50-60 odd years of the Ostrogoths in
Italy).******
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >  Also, even the
> > > idea that the 'tens-
> > > of thousands' of Heruls were largely women and
> > > children is not
> > > plausible. The logistic arrangement made by the
> > > court of Ravenna for
> > > the resettlement of Gepids in 523AD to Gaul
> shows
> > > that such a large
> > > migratory group, that was unable to take what it
> > > needed from others
> > > by force, would have needed substantial
> > > administrative support.
> >
> > GK: But we also have many examples of large
> > groups migrating with women and children at
> various
> > moments in the history of Germanic populations.
> There
> > is no reason to assume this would not be the case
> with
> > those Heruli who trekked northward.
>
>
> Yes, but those groups had massive armies, which were
> able to plunder
> at will. Procopius tells us that the Heruls were
> keen to avoid any
> conflict on their move to Thule. Some scholars have
> argued that they
> took an eastern route to avoid running into
> Thuringians and Saxons.
> Procopius tells us that they 'suffered no harm from
> the Danes'.
> Hence, these people were unable to take what they
> needed by force.

*****GK: That is why I surmised that the move
northward was planned and "permission" to transit
obtained from a variety of states and peoples.*****

> Like the Gepids of 523AD they needed substantial own
> resources to
> support themselves. The Ostrogoths gave the Gepids 3
> Solidi for
> household unit. If the 'tens of thousands' of Heruls
> needed a
> similar amount for a much longer destance they must
> have been
> extremely rich indeed, which of course does not
> square with the fact
> that they were starving refugees.

*****GK: Well I don't think that the people which
moved north after the Lombard battle were "starving
refugees"*****
>
>
>
>
> > >
> > > If the group that split off from the last
> survivors
> > > who sought refuge
> > > in the Roman empire was still 'tens of
> thousands' of
> > > people strong
> > > this would still be a very strong group.
> >
> > *****GK: I agree. Even if one accepts that a
> majority
> > (not most) of the Heruls (as of their status in
> 500
> > AD) were killed by the Lombards, one may assume
> that
> > about one-half (Procopius is not specific here)
> moved
> > on to Rogiland etc., while the other half trekked
> > northward.
>
=== message truncated ===



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