[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[Einar Gunnar Birgisson <einarbirg@yahoo.com>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>" 
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> > 
> > --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I would have a real problem with this notion of tens
> > > of thousands of 
> > > Heruls migrating to Thule. Firstly, a tribal army of
> > > that time 
> > > consisted of up to 3000 - 5000 warriors.
> > 
> > ******GK: That is what the "Illyrian" Heruls
> > (survivors of both the Lombard and later Roman alleged
> > near total slaughters) are recorded as able to field=
> > 3000+1500.******
> > 
> 
> 
> That is not a strong argument I am afraid. Procopius (and other 
> ancient authors) regularly inflates the numbers of armies, often 
by 
> the factor of 10. See for example Procopius' account of the attack 
> of the Anglians on the Warnians. Thus, these numbers given for the 
> Herulic contingents were likely inflated as well. Also, the number 
> of the entourage of Datius, which he sets at 200 is no doubt 
vastly 
> exaggerated and based on other ancient authors who give such a 
> retinue to kings of great significance.
> 
> #### Hi Dirk.
 First I want to say that I think George is adding a very valuable 
insight into this debate and brings up new angles. I have though 
problems with his evaluation about the Heruli being tens of 
thousands (going to Thule). To you Dirk I want to say, that I have 
sometimes problems understanding your argumentation processes and 
obviously it is not just me who has a short memory.
You bring up a completly new argument when stating that Procopius 
mentioning the number 200 is "...based on other ancient 
authors.."etc. Then you can maybe tell us about those examples? Were 
ancient authors do seem to prefer the number 200!
Lets look at what Procopius really have to say and leave out to much 
speculation. Because we are evaluating his writings. Right? Lets 
look at the Datius story....

Lets first look at the situation of the Heruli before their war with 
the Langobards.

>From Procopius-History of the Wars, VI. xiv 3-11.

Quote; "But as the time went on they became superior to all the 
barbarians who dwelt about them both in numbers, and as was natural, 
they attacked and vanquished them severally and kept plundering 
their possessions by force. And finally they made the Lombards, who 
were Christians together with several other nations, subject and 
tributary to themselves"

This shows that the Heruli were rather powerful at that time. They 
not just subjugated the Lombards,but SEVERAL other nations. So they 
were numerous,strong and safely established at that time. With their 
own king,that is Rodulf. In this light then we have to look at 
Procopius descriptions of their troubles after their war with the 
Langobards. And even because of losing a war and many of their 
warriors beeing slain then the tribal structure was still intact. So 
intact that they could effectively split themselves up into two 
seperate tribes( in reality so) and there were still other groups of 
Heruli that has to be accounted for. That was because they were 
strong and numerous before the war with the Langobards. Without 
reasources and a relatively intact tribal structure, the migration 
to Scandinavia could not have happened. So simple is that.

Ochus was killed around 548 AD. After that event a embassy was sent 
to Thule.. So there are at least 40 years between the Heruli loosing 
the war and the return of Datius and the others from Thule. And it 
was obvious that the Heruli about 40 years after the war with the 
Langobards had safely established themselves in Scandinavia. 
Otherwise there would not have been any entourage with a royal 
candidate from Scandinavia. 
So lets draw our own conclusions and then look at what happened 
after Ochus was killed.
In History of the Wars, Procopius says that they Heruli sent some of 
their notables to Thule to find a suitable candidate of royal blood 
to become a king. So they sent some notables meaning a group of 
notables. That is several men and definetely a substantial group of 
warriors and others for support and protection.This embassy could 
easily have been 50-80 men or more.
There was obviously many candidates of royal blood to be found in 
Thule and no problem to find a suitable one.  After the first 
candidate died then Datius was choosen as a candidate and he took of 
from Scandinavia with the embassy coming from Illyria,with his 
brother Aordus and a substantial group of Heruli youths. Probably 
mostly warriors. Likely Datius took with him men that would be loyal 
to him in case of conflict. In his eyes, the more men the better. 
With them were then probably other supporters to take care of other 
duties like tending the pack animals and traders using the 
opportunity of a safe trip. In short all kinds of people with 
different duties. 
 Datius had of course his brother with him and his privat advisers. 
Along the way to Illyria it is possible that this entourage got 
bigger for all kinds of reasons.
So here we have together the embassy being sent to Scandinavia on 
their return trip,Datius,Aordus,warriors,advisers,other supporters 
and probably traders and other people joining for all kinds of 
reasons. Must have been a rather impressive entourage as was to be 
expected under the circumstances.
Not many days after Suartuas has arrived then a messenger arrived 
with the tidings that the men from Thule were near at hand.  So the 
men from Thule sent a messenger. For the reason that Datius and his 
entourage was numerous and included pack animals,trade goods etc. So 
they traveled relatively slowly and send a messenger to announce 
their arrival within a few days.
Then Suartuas wanted to make war with the group from Thule and 
destroy them.  So he demanded the Heruli to destroy the men from 
Thule and took of in the direction of the Thule group with the 
intention of destroying them(or subjugating them) .
Then Procopius says( VI,xv. 27-36) " But when the two forces were 
one day´s journey distant from each other....."   
So Procopius says: TWO FORCES. It would be interesting to know if 
this can be translated in any different way. But such it is 
translated from Greek by Dewing. A force ready for battle does not 
have to be a big force but such a description in the context of this 
text indicates that here we are talking about a reasonably big 
groups of warriors ready for battle. No just a few tired 
travellers.                                                          
       
Using common sense, reading the whole chapter about this 
events,seeing things in perspective and evaluating these events in a 
neutral manner, then it is safe to assume that this entourage coming 
with Datius and Aordus was an impressive one as Procopius says.  
Taking everything into account that Procopius writes about this 
events shows that beyond any reasonable doubt. His writings about 
TWO FORCES should  expel all doubts in our minds about that matter.. 
Procopius account of these events are coherent,detailed, sound and 
not contradictory.
We can safely make a guess that this entourage could easily have 
included about 200-300 men. Nobles,warriors and other men with 
different duties.
Already in 529 AD a group of at least 1500-3000 Heruli mercenaries 
were in the service of Justinian. According to Procopius then 3000 
Herulian warriors joined the Gepids when Aordus was killed, while 
500 Heruli joined the Byzantines sent by Justinian in order to help 
the Lombardian king Audoin. And here we are just talking about 
warriors. These warriors had sisters,younger 
brothers,parents,relatives,grandparents. There is no reason to 
belief that the Heruli in Scandinavia were less numerous than the 
Illyrian Heruli.###########

> > 
> > *****GK: But we also have many examples of large
> > groups migrating with women and children at various
> > moments in the history of Germanic populations. There
> > is no reason to assume this would not be the case with
> > those Heruli who trekked northward.*****  
>
> Yes, but those groups had massive armies, which were able to 
plunder 
> at will. Procopius tells us that the Heruls were keen to avoid any 
> conflict on their move to Thule. 

##### No, he says no such thing, but naturally they avoided 
conflict. Would you think it was wise to make war with kids and 
women around? And why make war for no good reasons? Why would they 
have made war with nations on their way?###

Some scholars have argued that they 
> took an eastern route to avoid running into Thuringians and 
Saxons. 
> Procopius tells us that they 'suffered no harm from the Danes'. 
> Hence, these people were unable to take what they needed by force.

### This is unvalid argumentation. Drawing such conclusions does not 
really hold water. Probably the Dani were the most powerful tribes 
in Scandinavia, and doubtlessly Procopius were aware of that. And 
you forget he uses plural. The Dani was an umbrella term over many 
tribes.#####

> Like the Gepids of 523AD they needed substantial own resources to 
> support themselves. The Ostrogoths gave the Gepids 3 Solidi for 
> household unit. If the 'tens of thousands' of Heruls needed a 
> similar amount for a much longer destance they must have been 
> extremely rich indeed, which of course does not square with the 
fact 
> that they were starving refugees.

##### Starving refugees! This is an incredible statement. You are 
like implying that the Heruli migrating to Thule were starving 
refugees?. Use you common sense.#########
> 
> This loss of their settlement areas in Jordanes is unreliable and 
> may refer  to a time just before 500AD, when there were in fact no 
> Heruls in Scandinavia.

#### Why is it unreliable? Because you say so? You have no idea if 
there were (or were not) any Heruli groups in Scandinavia before 
c.500 A.D. Like for trading purposes.####
> 
> > More: it is arguable that this group was led by
> > families who could trace their ancestry back to the
> > areas where they were now moving towards. Why else go
> > there? There was plenty of unoccupied space in
> > between, but strangely enough they pushed on...****
> > 
> That is true, yet another of the oddities in Procopius' account I 
> suppose. Procopius was mainly eager to tell that the Heruls 
> moved 'to the end of the earth' not just somewhere north, like to 
> the Warnians. Procopius was keen to show that northern barbarians 
> could return to Thule/Scandza. This was an important part in his 
> argument to contemporary barbarian policy. 

#### You say return? These few lines above are Goffart's arguments. 
Right? Whatever, then this is pure speculation. Just a few lines 
below then you make statements that invalid these arguments.####

Curiously, Procopius, who 
> was very interested and who claimed to be informed directly from 
> people who had come from their and from Heruls makes no mentioning 
> that the Heruls had once come from there, or that the Thule Heruls 
> were returning to ancient homelands. If he had held such a view he 
> would most likely have mentioned it. The fact that he doesn't 
shows 
> that he thought that the Heruls did not come from Thule originally.

##### Oh, was not Procopius keen to show that northern barbarians 
could return to Thule! but now the Heruli were not from there??. 
This is a rather interesting logic and reminds me of the logic of 
Goffart who seems to be able to know somehow what Procopius was 
THINKING!#####
>  
> But there were "settlements" (confirmed by
> > both Procopius and Jordanes) for nearly two
> > generations, there was independence, and then a
> > catastrophic war with the Dani, the "best of the
> > northerners".******
> >
> Again, the 'Dani driving out Heruls' sentence may refer to a 
period 
> around 500 before the supposed arrival of Heruls in Thule. It was 
in 
> my view included for contemporary political reasons and does not 
> reflect real events. 

### What contemporary political reasons would that be???? #####

Also, Procopius does not say anything about 
> Herulic independence in Thule. He also does not mention any 
Herulic 
> kings in Thule. Finally, if they had managed to establish 
themselves 
> so favourably in Thule, it seems odd that their princes were so 
> willing to rule over a group of rather insignificant federates of 
> the Empire. 

####Who says they were willing? Were is the indication for that? 
They were probably choosen for the task.###
> 

> Further, if the hypothesis that the Heruli
> > were "returning home" is plausible, their absorption
> > into the local population becomes even more logical.
>  
> Procopius tells us no such thing. In fact, he implies that they 
were 
> not returning home when they moved to Thule.
>
#### And were does he imply so?
Best regards Einar####


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