[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Einar Gunnar Birgisson 
<einarbirg at y...>" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>" 
> <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> > > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I would have a real problem with this notion of tens
> > > > of thousands of 
> > > > Heruls migrating to Thule. Firstly, a tribal army of
> > > > that time 
> > > > consisted of up to 3000 - 5000 warriors.
> > > 
> > > ******GK: That is what the "Illyrian" Heruls
> > > (survivors of both the Lombard and later Roman alleged
> > > near total slaughters) are recorded as able to field=
> > > 3000+1500.******
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > That is not a strong argument I am afraid. Procopius (and other 
> > ancient authors) regularly inflates the numbers of armies, often 
> by 
> > the factor of 10. See for example Procopius' account of the 
attack 
> > of the Anglians on the Warnians. Thus, these numbers given for 
the 
> > Herulic contingents were likely inflated as well. Also, the 
number 
> > of the entourage of Datius, which he sets at 200 is no doubt 
> vastly 
> > exaggerated and based on other ancient authors who give such a 
> > retinue to kings of great significance.
> > 
> > #### Hi Dirk.
>  First I want to say that I think George is adding a very valuable 
> insight into this debate and brings up new angles. I have though 
> problems with his evaluation about the Heruli being tens of 
> thousands (going to Thule). 


Hi Einar,

rightly so! Authors like Werner, Pohl etc. all concluded that the 
Thule Heruls must have been a very small group, and cannot have 
constituted a mass-migration of 'tens-of-thousands of people' as 
George is arguing. 




To you Dirk I want to say, that I have 
> sometimes problems understanding your argumentation processes and 
> obviously it is not just me who has a short memory.
> You bring up a completly new argument when stating that Procopius 
> mentioning the number 200 is "...based on other ancient 
> authors.."etc. Then you can maybe tell us about those examples? 



Yes, I did so several times before. E.g. the retinue of Givultus is 
said to have numbered 200, but this number is also given in other 
earlier sources. 





Were 
> ancient authors do seem to prefer the number 200!
> Lets look at what Procopius really have to say and leave out to 
much 
> speculation. 


Yes, please!




Because we are evaluating his writings. Right? Lets 
> look at the Datius story....
> 
> Lets first look at the situation of the Heruli before their war 
with 
> the Langobards.
> 
> From Procopius-History of the Wars, VI. xiv 3-11.
> 
> Quote; "But as the time went on they became superior to all the 
> barbarians who dwelt about them both in numbers, and as was 
natural, 
> they attacked and vanquished them severally and kept plundering 
> their possessions by force. And finally they made the Lombards, who 
> were Christians together with several other nations, subject and 
> tributary to themselves"
> 
> This shows that the Heruli were rather powerful at that time. They 
> not just subjugated the Lombards,but SEVERAL other nations. So they 
> were numerous,strong and safely established at that time. 



Slight problem here. They were certainly militarily strong. In fact, 
they had adopted a Hunnic form of subsistence, i.e. terrorising local 
populations. Interestingly, this does not require great strenght in 
numbers, in fact the subressed populations were likely more numerous. 
The fact that they were soundly defeated by the Langobards shows that 
they were not 'safely established' at all.  







With their 
> own king,that is Rodulf. In this light then we have to look at 
> Procopius descriptions of their troubles after their war with the 
> Langobards. And even because of losing a war and many of their 
> warriors beeing slain then the tribal structure was still intact. 
So 
> intact that they could effectively split themselves up into two 
> seperate tribes( in reality so) and there were still other groups 
of 
> Heruli that has to be accounted for. 



This is speculation. The split up may just as well be outward signs 
that the tribal leadership structures had collapsed. Authority was 
weak, as would be expected from a group that was just chased away by 
the Gepids.




That was because they were 
> strong and numerous before the war with the Langobards. Without 
> reasources and a relatively intact tribal structure, the migration 
> to Scandinavia could not have happened. So simple is that.



No, it is not so simple I am afraid. You presented a circular 
argument. Procopius tells us that they were weak, but some of them 
migrated to Thule. You conclude that a migration to Thule can only 
have been conducted by a strong, well organised tribe, ergo Procopius 
was wrong and the Heruls were strong. 

In reallity, you need the Heruls to be strong so that they can become 
the elite of Scandinavia, the scholars and warriors of the time who 
eventually would migrate to Iceland. Einar, you should not rewrite 
history to fit your theories, the weakness of which have been 
displayed by Linda Richters.






> 
> Ochus was killed around 548 AD. After that event a embassy was sent 
> to Thule.. So there are at least 40 years between the Heruli 
loosing 
> the war and the return of Datius and the others from Thule. And it 
> was obvious that the Heruli about 40 years after the war with the 
> Langobards had safely established themselves in Scandinavia. 



Again, you are speculating. All that is said by Procopius is that 
Heruls were still living in Thule. Procopius says no word 
about 'safely established'. In fact, he mentiones no kings or 
independent leadership. The fact that the Thule Heruls vanish from 
history, with no source outside Procopius ever mentioning them the 
assumption should be that they were integrated and absorbed.





> Otherwise there would not have been any entourage with a royal 
> candidate from Scandinavia. 
> So lets draw our own conclusions and then look at what happened 
> after Ochus was killed.
> In History of the Wars, Procopius says that they Heruli sent some 
of 
> their notables to Thule to find a suitable candidate of royal blood 
> to become a king. So they sent some notables meaning a group of 
> notables. That is several men and definetely a substantial group of 
> warriors and others for support and protection.This embassy could 
> easily have been 50-80 men or more.



Could have, might have ... maybe maybe not. We don't know ... 
speculation. 




> There was obviously many candidates of royal blood to be found in 
> Thule and no problem to find a suitable one.  After the first 
> candidate died then Datius was choosen as a candidate and he took 
of 
> from Scandinavia with the embassy coming from Illyria,with his 
> brother Aordus and a substantial group of Heruli youths. Probably 
> mostly warriors. Likely Datius took with him men that would be 
loyal 
> to him in case of conflict. In his eyes, the more men the better. 
> With them were then probably other supporters to take care of other 
> duties like tending the pack animals and traders using the 
> opportunity of a safe trip. In short all kinds of people with 
> different duties. 
>  Datius had of course his brother with him and his privat advisers. 
> Along the way to Illyria it is possible that this entourage got 
> bigger for all kinds of reasons.
> So here we have together the embassy being sent to Scandinavia on 
> their return trip,Datius,Aordus,warriors,advisers,other supporters 
> and probably traders and other people joining for all kinds of 
> reasons. Must have been a rather impressive entourage as was to be 
> expected under the circumstances.
> Not many days after Suartuas has arrived then a messenger arrived 
> with the tidings that the men from Thule were near at hand.  So the 
> men from Thule sent a messenger. For the reason that Datius and his 
> entourage was numerous and included pack animals,trade goods etc. 
So 
> they traveled relatively slowly and send a messenger to announce 
> their arrival within a few days.
> Then Suartuas wanted to make war with the group from Thule and 
> destroy them.  So he demanded the Heruli to destroy the men from 
> Thule and took of in the direction of the Thule group with the 
> intention of destroying them(or subjugating them) .
> Then Procopius says( VI,xv. 27-36) " But when the two forces were 
> one day´s journey distant from each other....."   
> So Procopius says: TWO FORCES. It would be interesting to know if 
> this can be translated in any different way. But such it is 
> translated from Greek by Dewing. A force ready for battle does not 
> have to be a big force but such a description in the context of 
this 
> text indicates that here we are talking about a reasonably big 
> groups of warriors ready for battle. No just a few tired 
> 
travellers.                                                          
>        
> Using common sense, reading the whole chapter about this 
> events,seeing things in perspective and evaluating these events in 
a 
> neutral manner, then it is safe to assume that this entourage 
coming 
> with Datius and Aordus was an impressive one as Procopius says.



The forces, mentioned by Procopius included those of the local 
Herulic supporter on both sides. To assume from the use of the 
word 'force' that we are dealing with large scale armies is pure 
speculation. 


  
> Taking everything into account that Procopius writes about this 
> events shows that beyond any reasonable doubt. His writings about 
> TWO FORCES should  expel all doubts in our minds about that 
matter.. 
> Procopius account of these events are coherent,detailed, sound and 
> not contradictory.
> We can safely make a guess that this entourage could easily have 
> included about 200-300 men.



So even more than Procopius says?



> Nobles,warriors and other men with 
> different duties.
> Already in 529 AD a group of at least 1500-3000 Heruli mercenaries 
> were in the service of Justinian. According to Procopius then 3000 
> Herulian warriors joined the Gepids when Aordus was killed, while 
> 500 Heruli joined the Byzantines sent by Justinian in order to help 
> the Lombardian king Audoin. And here we are just talking about 
> warriors. These warriors had sisters,younger 
> brothers,parents,relatives,grandparents. There is no reason to 
> belief that the Heruli in Scandinavia were less numerous than the 
> Illyrian Heruli.###########
> 
> > > 
> > > *****GK: But we also have many examples of large
> > > groups migrating with women and children at various
> > > moments in the history of Germanic populations. There
> > > is no reason to assume this would not be the case with
> > > those Heruli who trekked northward.*****  
> >
> > Yes, but those groups had massive armies, which were able to 
> plunder 
> > at will. Procopius tells us that the Heruls were keen to avoid 
any 
> > conflict on their move to Thule. 
> 
> ##### No, he says no such thing, but naturally they avoided 
> conflict. Would you think it was wise to make war with kids and 
> women around? And why make war for no good reasons? Why would they 
> have made war with nations on their way?###



Because if a mass migration of tens-of thousands of people would move 
through your country you would not be very happy if you were one of 
the locals who feared for their harvests etc. In other words they 
would have tried to keep you out by force.





> 
> Some scholars have argued that they 
> > took an eastern route to avoid running into Thuringians and 
> Saxons. 
> > Procopius tells us that they 'suffered no harm from the Danes'. 
> > Hence, these people were unable to take what they needed by force.
> 
> ### This is unvalid argumentation. Drawing such conclusions does 
not 
> really hold water. Probably the Dani were the most powerful tribes 
> in Scandinavia, and doubtlessly Procopius were aware of that. And 
> you forget he uses plural. The Dani was an umbrella term over many 
> tribes.#####
> 


The passage is clear, the migrating Heruls were happy not to suffer 
more harm, after beeing defeated by Langobards, starving in Rugiland, 
suffering rape abuse and attacks by Gepids, the Heruls were lucky not 
to suffer any more. Remember, Procopius writes that the Heruls 'were 
unable to take any more suffering' when they decided to move to 
Illyria and Thule.





> > Like the Gepids of 523AD they needed substantial own resources to 
> > support themselves. The Ostrogoths gave the Gepids 3 Solidi for 
> > household unit. If the 'tens of thousands' of Heruls needed a 
> > similar amount for a much longer destance they must have been 
> > extremely rich indeed, which of course does not square with the 
> fact 
> > that they were starving refugees.
> 
> ##### Starving refugees! This is an incredible statement. You are 
> like implying that the Heruli migrating to Thule were starving 
> refugees?. Use you common sense.#########



No Einar, please read Procopius carefully. The Heruls fled from the 
Langobards, starved in Rugiland, were abused, robbed, raped and 
attacked by the Gepids. 'Unable to take any more abuse' says 
Procopius, they decided to move again. If you don't regard this as a 
report about suffering refugees, I cannot help you.  






> > 
> > This loss of their settlement areas in Jordanes is unreliable and 
> > may refer  to a time just before 500AD, when there were in fact 
no 
> > Heruls in Scandinavia.
> 
> #### Why is it unreliable? Because you say so? You have no idea if 
> there were (or were not) any Heruli groups in Scandinavia before 
> c.500 A.D. Like for trading purposes.####



True, but it is still regarded as unreliable. 


> > 
> > > More: it is arguable that this group was led by
> > > families who could trace their ancestry back to the
> > > areas where they were now moving towards. Why else go
> > > there? There was plenty of unoccupied space in
> > > between, but strangely enough they pushed on...****
> > > 
> > That is true, yet another of the oddities in Procopius' account I 
> > suppose. Procopius was mainly eager to tell that the Heruls 
> > moved 'to the end of the earth' not just somewhere north, like to 
> > the Warnians. Procopius was keen to show that northern barbarians 
> > could return to Thule/Scandza. This was an important part in his 
> > argument to contemporary barbarian policy. 
> 
> #### You say return? These few lines above are Goffart's arguments. 
> Right? Whatever, then this is pure speculation. Just a few lines 
> below then you make statements that invalid these arguments.####
> 



So, just because the argument was brought foreward by Prof. W. 
Goffart, you, conclude that it is nothing but speculation? Just as 
reminder, Goffart is one of the best experts on the sources of that 
time. Some of this arguments may be challenging, some maybe wrong, 
but few scholars have made a greater contribution to our 
understanding of that period. You should bear this in mind, when you 
make this kind of snapp judgements. 




> Curiously, Procopius, who 
> > was very interested and who claimed to be informed directly from 
> > people who had come from their and from Heruls makes no 
mentioning 
> > that the Heruls had once come from there, or that the Thule 
Heruls 
> > were returning to ancient homelands. If he had held such a view 
he 
> > would most likely have mentioned it. The fact that he doesn't 
> shows 
> > that he thought that the Heruls did not come from Thule 
originally.
> 
> ##### Oh, was not Procopius keen to show that northern barbarians 
> could return to Thule! but now the Heruli were not from there??. 
> This is a rather interesting logic and reminds me of the logic of 
> Goffart who seems to be able to know somehow what Procopius was 
> THINKING!#####



Your cynisism is not helpful Einar. You may regard yourself a greater 
expert on late antique sources than Goffart, but you should support 
your arguments. Goffart and others state that the origin of all 
northern barbarians from Thule/Scandza was a topic of that time. Yet, 
the fact, that Procopius, who will certainly have believed that all 
barbarians came from there at one stage finds no confirmation from 
his own sources for such an origin. Had his sources confirmed this he 
would clearly have mentioned it. 







> >  
> > But there were "settlements" (confirmed by
> > > both Procopius and Jordanes) for nearly two
> > > generations, there was independence, and then a
> > > catastrophic war with the Dani, the "best of the
> > > northerners".******
> > >
> > Again, the 'Dani driving out Heruls' sentence may refer to a 
> period 
> > around 500 before the supposed arrival of Heruls in Thule. It was 
> in 
> > my view included for contemporary political reasons and does not 
> > reflect real events. 
> 
> ### What contemporary political reasons would that be???? #####
> 


At the time, the court of Ravenna was busy setting up a network of 
allied states in the north. With many Heruls still living in Italy, 
it was politically opportune to demonstrate a common origin of Goths 
and Heruls to strengthen those ties and especially placating the 
Roman senatorial elites. 





> Also, Procopius does not say anything about 
> > Herulic independence in Thule. He also does not mention any 
> Herulic 
> > kings in Thule. Finally, if they had managed to establish 
> themselves 
> > so favourably in Thule, it seems odd that their princes were so 
> > willing to rule over a group of rather insignificant federates of 
> > the Empire. 
> 
> ####Who says they were willing? Were is the indication for that? 
> They were probably choosen for the task.###
> > 


Against their will? That is agian speculation. 




> 
> > Further, if the hypothesis that the Heruli
> > > were "returning home" is plausible, their absorption
> > > into the local population becomes even more logical.
> >  
> > Procopius tells us no such thing. In fact, he implies that they 
> were 
> > not returning home when they moved to Thule.
> >
> #### And were does he imply so?



By not spelling it out, depite of his great interest in the Heruls, 
the ancient history of the Heruls and in Thule, Procopius does not 
say a word that the Heruls were returning to Thule, or had any 
previous link with Thule.


cheers
Dirk 


> Best regards Einar####


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