[gothic-l] Re: Eruli in the West

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., andreas.schwarcz at u... wrote:
> On 13 Feb 2002, at 8:33, faltin2001 wrote:
> 
> > > That there were connections in the fifth century between 
> > > Scandinavia and Bohemia is testified by archeology (see Tejral 
and
> > > Arrhenius) and the Longobardic kings from the Gausi.  
> > 
> > 
> > Hello Andreas,
> > 
> > I think that this link of Langobardic kings (ex genere gausus) 
with
> > Scandinavia is very tentative indeed. The Edictus Rothari 
mentions in
> > its king list the following names with 'ex genere'.
> > 
> > 1. rex agilmund, ex genere gugingus.
> > 10. audoin, ex genere gausus.
> > 12. clep, ex genere beleos.
> > 14. agilulf, turingus, ex genere anawas.
> > 16. hariwald, ex genere caupus.
> > 17. rotari rex, filius nandinig, ex genere harodos.
> > 
> > I think there firstly arises the problem of what the respective 
names
> > (gugingus, gausus, beleos, anawas, caupus, harodos) are really
> > refering to. Some authors have opted for names of clans, others 
for
> > names of gods or areas. Thus, Agiulf, who is actually called a
> > Thurginian may have been a member of a certain clan 
named 'Anawas'.
> > Cleph and Hariwald seemed to have been members of clans with the 
names
> > Beleos and Caupus, respectively. For Rothari the possibility 
exists
> > that 'harodos' referes to the Harudes tribe, mentioned already at 
the
> > time of Ceasar, but also a link to one of the names of Wodan was 
also
> > suggested. 
> > 
> > However, with Agilulf being a Thuringian, it is also possible 
that the
> > 'ex genere harodos' of Rothari refered to the pagus Harudorum (the
> > Harudian area) in north Thuringia, which was the area were the
> > Thuringians who joined the Langobards in their move to Italy 
actually
> > came from. Thus, some authors (I think Hauptfeld, Lotter and 
Menghin?)
> > have argued that Audoin was most likely also a Thuringian, with 
links
> > to the pagus Harudorum and the Saxons who took over the area after
> > 533AD and who joined the Langobards in Italy, because of these 
links
> > with Audoin. In addition, a god Gaut was apparently also 
worshiped as
> > founder god among the Saxons, in the form of Hatha-Gaut, and 
probably
> > also known among the Thuringians.
> > 
> > cheers,
> > Dirk
> Dear Dirk,
> ex genere of course defines a prominent family and its name may 
> express a genealogy going back to Gaut as well as an ethnic 
> connotation. But in contrast to Agilulf Audoin is not called a 
> Thuringus (but also not a Gaut). He was a Longobard by his father, 
> the connection to the Thuringians went over his very prominent 
> mother.  
> 
> Hauptfeld p.128, formulates it this way:
> "Die gautische Herkunft seiner Familie dürfte ebenso wie die 
> harudische Abstammung des späteren Langobardenkönigs Rothari 
> aus dem thüringischen Bereich stammen," and points out that 
> according to the Historia codicis Gothani 5,9 Audoin was a half-
> brother both of the Thuringian king Herminafred and the former 
> Longobardic queen Ranicunda. His mother Menia was the widow of 
> the Thuringian king Bisin.




Hello Andreas,

yes, that was exactly the bit in Hauptfeld's article that I had in 
mind. I.e. the Gautic decend of Alboin as well as the Harudic decent 
of Rothari being derived from the Thuringian kingdom. 


 
> Well, if you talk about a "gautic descent", the Gausus may apply 
> either to the line of the mother, if she is very prominent (and we 
do 
> not know from where Menia came before she married Bisin) or to 
> the father. Anyway it gives a family tradition, not an ethnic 
> desciption of the person itself. 



I think W. Menghin (Die Langobarden) states that Menia, the wife of 
the Thuringian king and mother of the Langobardic king Audoin was 
of 'noble Langobardic decent', but I don't know what the basis for 
this is. This would make Audoin half-Thuringian and half-Langobardic, 
probably with connection to the Saxons in the formerly Thuringian 
pagus Harudorum. A perfect mixture to lead a combined Langobardic-
Thuringian and Saxon group into Italy. 

cheers,
Dirk



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