[gothic-l] Gothic Archaeology was Re: Whence the Eruli

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
>
> --- Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > >--- faltin2001 <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > >(an excellent summary of archaeological research on
> > >the Goths)
> > >****GK: A quick point between classes at the U.== I
> > >think it is no longer possible to claim a
> > Scandinavian
> > >descent for the Goths viewed as an ethnos. Mass
> > >migration across the Baltic seems out of the
> > question.
> > >But what recent archaeology does not apparently
> > rule
> > >out is the possibility of a smaller group
> > infiltrating
> > >the "locals" of Wielbark as their ruling class. And
> > >all it takes for a "myth" such as that popularized
> > by
> > >Cassiodorus/Jordanes to evolve are the "traditions"
> > of
> > >one (eventually) ruling family, which are
> > transposed
> > >onto the entire people... I think more discussion
> > of
> > >this is warranted. See you all later.*****
> > >
> >
> >(TG) George,
> > What you write here sounds very logical. Wielbark is
> > just a name.
> > Maybe the culture in Gotland also was Wielbark.
> >
> > What we know is that there was much movement both
> > way in the cultural area.
> > A consequence is that customs and language tends to
> > standardize.
> >
> > Even if Kaliff is no archaeologist but historian I
> > think he has
> > managed well with "Gothic connections" as a further
> > bases for
> > discussions.
> >
> > There is no doubt that as Gotland was a free trading
> > area people have
> > moved there and adapted to the Gotlandic language
> > and the culture has
> > received new impulses all the time.
> >
> > Tore
> > --
> *****GK: I've read Kaliff with great interest (and
> must remember to pay the good people at Uppsala before
> they start sending me reminder notices (:=))). === But
> (I've lost the letter number) hadn't you argued
> previously (perhaps on another list?)that according to
> Wolongiewicz the earliest "Wielbark" graves could be
> dated to the 2nd c. BC? I didn't see this reported in
> Kaliff.=== Anyway, a couple of points that any
> synthesis should have answers for: (1) Is it sheer
> coincidence that the same name or variants thereof
> (Goth, Gut, Gaut, etc. etc.) is shared by people on
> both sides of the Baltic in the period in question?



Hi George,

I don't think that it is coincidence, although similar or identical
names do exist on both sides of the Baltic without any realtionship,
e.g. the Saami and Sami of East Prussia. The Gutones are first
mentioned on the continent around in the fist decades of the first
century AD. Writes like Pliny know of no Goths in Scandinavia and
Gauti are only mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century. So if the
names are related some sort of transfer would have occured in the
period between 50AD and 150AD. In fact it could be related to the
emergence of a burial customs in the Wielbark group that is traced to
Scandinavia at the end of the first century AD.







> How would this have come about? == If we accept Strabo
> as speaking of the Goths then at least by the end of
> the 1rst c. BC. Otherwise by the beginning of the 1rst
> c. AD because Pliny's information is usually assigned
> to the Roman expedition into the Baltic of the first
> years AD.== (2) How do we explain the peculiar nature
> of the Gothic monarchy as described by Tacitus?===


I think Timpe explains this as Tacitus' aim to describe a
degeneration of the Germanic people towards the Sarmatians the
further he moves to the east. At any rate, kingship probably emerged
first among the Marcomanni and Quadi  and in the Przeworsk groups,
who adopted it from the Celts. The Germanic word 'reiks' for king is
borrowed from Celtic. From their it will also have reached the
Wielbark people.


cheers




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck
Monitoring Service trial
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/