[gothic-l] Gothic Archaeology was Re: Whence the Eruli

[george knysh]

--- faltin2001 <dirk at smra.co.uk> wrote:
 The Gutones
> are first
> mentioned on the continent around in the fist
> decades of the first
> century AD. Writes like Pliny know of no Goths in
> Scandinavia and
> Gauti are only mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd
> century. So if the
> names are related some sort of transfer would have
> occured in the
> period between 50AD and 150AD.

*****GK: Pliny knows very little about Scandinavia, so
his silence is not particularly relevant. As for
Ptolemy, keep in mind that his information
occasionally goes back to the 3rd c. BC, and he is not
always careful to indicate the historical layers of
his nomenclature. For instance he knows of "Venedi"
and the "Venedic Bay" on the Baltic. By 140 AD this
localization was nearly 400 years out of date. As for
the meaning of Gaut etc.. see A. Kaliff, pp. 63 col.2,
who connects it to commercial activity long predating
Pliny.*****

 (DF)In fact it could be
> related to the
> emergence of a burial customs in the Wielbark group
> that is traced to
> Scandinavia at the end of the first century AD.

*****GK: Kaliff points out that these "back and forth"
influences are much older than the 1rst c. AD. So I
must reiterate my point. There is nothing in the
archaeology that would negate the possibility of the
arrival of a ruling family among the Wielbark Goths
whose traditions eventually became those of the entire
"ethnos". BTW the time of this family's arrival south
is not particularly important. They could have come as
late as the second or third century, or as early as
the 1rst c. BC, in fact at any point in the "back and
forth" across the Baltic contacts. I have made a
special study of a similar process by which the Old
Kyivan aristocracy of the 11th century (which founded
Kyiv/Kiev ca. 700 AD) found its roots in the Crimean
Late Hun state of the 5th century AD., even though the
overwhelming majority of these aristocrats were of
"local" origin.*****
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>(DF) I think Timpe explains this as Tacitus' aim to
> describe a
> degeneration of the Germanic people towards the
> Sarmatians the
> further he moves to the east.

****GK: Given the nature of the contemporary Roman
State, I don't believe that a strong Gothic monarchy
would be evidence of degeneration.******


(DF) At any rate, kingship
> probably emerged
> first among the Marcomanni and Quadi  and in the
> Przeworsk groups,
> who adopted it from the Celts. The Germanic word
> 'reiks' for king is
> borrowed from Celtic. From their it will also have
> reached the
> Wielbark people.

*****GK: That is entirely possible. Note however that
two other "royal" terms were available here. The
specifically Gothic "thiudans" and the older "kunigaz"
(which was in fact borrowed by Finns, Balts and
Slavs).*****
>

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