[gothic-l] Visigothic King Fridigern

[Oskar Andersson]

Hi Tore,


> >Hi,
> >
> >Fritigern and Alavivus became the leaders of a large group of 
> >Tervingi Goths after they had
> >abandoned the rule of Athanaric. They arrived at the Danube (which 
> >is the exacy place?) sometime
> >in 376 (anyone knows exactly when?) to seek refuge from the Hunnic 
> >conquest and find new lands under
> >new leadership, but so did also a group of Greuthungi Goths lead by 
> >Alatheus and Saphrax (after Ermenaric's
> >death). These were mainly the two groups that crossed the limes and 
> >later conquered Italy and sacked Rome,
> >and made their way into Gaul and Spain; the two main groups later 
> >identified as Visigoths.
> >
> >My question was first and foremost about which sources mentioned 
> >Ostrogoths, Burgundians and Vandals as
> >participating in the conquest of Radagaisus in 405/6 - not about who 
> >led the groups across Danube in 376 (obviously there
> >were two groups but only the Tervingi was first admitted entrance) 
> >but rather if we can identify Visigoths/Ostrogoths as early as 410.
> >
> >Kindly enough both Andreas Schwarz and Dirk cleared the mist! And it 
> >is pretty anachronistic, as Schwarz noted,
> >and I tried to figure out, to talk about Ostrogoths as early as 405. 
> >They did not crystallise too long before Theoderic
> >entered Italy in 488/99.
> >
> >Best,
> >Oskar
> >
> >
> 
> Oskar,
> We have a problem with old authors that are still read, lika Olaus 
> Magni and followers like Birger Nerman.
> They established that there were Westgoths coming from Västergötland 
> and Eastgoths coming from Östergötland. As the immigration should 
> have taken place before CE the names must be old. This is of course 
> pure nonsense.
> 
> I fully agree with your analyzis that the words visi and ostro came very late.

Personally I think that the labels should be applied to the Goths of Gaul and Spain 
following Alaric's sacking of Rome in 410, and the Goths entering under Theoderic 
in 488/99. It is confusing to use the terms prior to that. And especially applying it to 
the Goths in the Black Sea region since there were several independent kingdoms there (possibly six different, see Heather) , not two groups of Visigoths and Ostrogoths that later independently marched to settle in Spain and the latter in Italy. Such talk neglects the different migrations that occurred. It is a drastic oversimplification that is erronneous. The migrations into the empire and the different routes taken are not that simple.
I am just curious why this idea still seems to be around? Most people on this list seem pretty updated, and I have been updated too...

> Unfortunately this debate will come up time after time as new scolars 
> will read Birger Nerman and those whow still today without 
> afterthought just copies those phantasies.

Well, I am not too familiar with Birger Nerman, although I know he authored some books on Uppsala mounds and the birth of Sweden. They showed some images of him in yesterdays program "Germanerna" on Swedish channel II - I bet you watched it Tore!?

> Best Tore
> -- 

Best,
Oskar


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