[gothic-l] Two Peoples

[Tore Gannholm]

>Oskar,
>
>Personally I have always been rather sceptic
>of Heather. You are welcome after having
>read the Hermodsson book on the Goths,
>(but maybe you cannot read Swedish?) to
>discuss the failings of that book.
>
>Others and myself do not have the high regard
>for Heather and Wolfram and I hope that these
>views are at least respected by others.
>
>There still remains important questions to be explained
>in the field of research on the Goths by those
>who propose an ethnogenesis in northern Poland.
>Also the linguistic similarity between the people names Goths, Gutar,
>Goetar/Gauti will always be hard to explain away.
>I have dealt in years with the details of this linguistic
>peoples names similarity on the list and will not do a repeat
>performance here but suggest that you study the
>list archives.
>
>It is hard to see why it is necessary to argue for
>the existence of Gothic unity. In my opinion there are
>indications that the Tervingi were in 376 AD led by
>Alavivus and the Greuthingi by Alatheus and Saphrax
>when they sought refuge from the Huns in the Roman
>empire. Then ten  years later other Greuthingi followed
>under Odotheus and still other Goths under Radagaisus
>405/406 AD. But many Ostrogoths remained in the East and
>later after 450 AD established the Second Great Gothic
>Kingdom in the east. This was later referred to as Rus.
>Wherever the Goths migrated they demonstrated special
>characteristics: an extraordinary military and organizational
>capacity and a high level of cultural development but they
>lacked the ability to set up political systems that remained
>stable for longer periods of time. Such was also the pattern
>of the kingdom of Rus but it was the Gothic kingdom to last
>longest. As late as the 11th century a Gothic element is
>still discernible but the ethnic, lingustic and cultural policy of
>Slavization prevailed. It can be estimated that in the 1240s with
>the victories of the Tatars the last element of Gothic origin
>of the Khaganate of Kiev disappeared in the south.
>
>So the end result of the migrations of the Goths could be said
>to be the Ostrogothic Kingdom in Italy, the Visigothic kingdom
>in Spain and the Second Great Gothic Kingdom in the east
>that laste longer than the Gothic kingdoms in the west.
>
>Gothically
>
>Bertil
>
>Naturally, you are entitled to stick to whatever theory you might wish.
>I just find it peculiar that you do not face the evidence presented here
>and seriously reply to it. I can't understand what this Hermodsson makes
>such an impact on you, and why he is more authorative to you than other
>more competent historians like Wolfram and Heather?
>Somehow it seems like you prefer it to be a certain way although you are
>unable to face up to the facts laid forward authorative historians 
>like Heather
>and competent members of this list!


Bertil,
I had to reread Hermodssons book. When I first read it I considered 
it a popular account of the Goths without any serious source 
references.
After reading it again I haven't changed my mind.

I had some correspondence with Hermodsson at the time of the book. 
And I have listened to an address made by him over the book. He 
couldn't answer about anything but what he had written. I felt pity 
for him.

He has read Tacitus and Jordanes. He says that often are the names 
Ostrogoths and Visigoths used. However he does not state in which 
century they are introduced.

After that it is obvious he has read the Swedish encyclopedia where 
they talk about Västgoter and Östgoter from about 275.I can follow 
the same thinking in both. The Swedish encyclopedia has no references 
to sources.

He has no refrences to sources either.

It is a nice book for those who never or only a little heard about the Goths.
The Silver Bible is of course well known in Sweden and that makes the 
book interesting to some people.

But please don't use it as proof in our debates. We need something 
more substantial.

Tore
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