[gothic-l] Re: Gothic Ethnogenesis

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>  Different groups probably
> >>  moved from southern Scandinavia across the
> >>  Baltic to northern Poland.
> >
> >
> >This is not supported by archaeological research. While for example
> >the migrations of groups of Suebi into Bohemia and Moravia is 
clearly
> >reflected in archaeolgical evidence, there is no evidence for such 
a
> >migration from Scandinavia to the Vistula area. Archaeolgists have
> >clearly determined that the Wielbark culture took its influences 
only
> >from the surrounding southern and western material cultures.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  These were likely not
> >>  large scale migrations, but probably groups
> >>  of sufficient social or military importance to
> >>  become dominant among pre-existing populations.
> >
> >
> >Even this theory of the 'traditional core' migration, which was
> >advanced by some historians to account for passages in the Getica, 
is
> >now seen as unlikely. Advances and new interpretations in
> >archaeological research have shed light on the development of 
social
> >organisation. This shows that more comlex forms of social
> >organisation spread from south (in this case the East and Danube
> >Celtic areas) to the north. Thus, an elite migration from the north
> >in the centuries BC is highly unlikely.
> >
> >
> >Dirk
> >
> >
> 
> Dirk,
> As a matter of fact professor Birger Nerman writes in "Det svenska 
> rikets uppkomst" that he has detected an exodus from Gotland about 
> 300 B.C to the southern shores of the Baltic. This is somewhere 
where 
> later the Wielbark culture is formed.


Tore,

many authors wrote a lot of things 'as a matter of fact'. And if this 
was in the 1950s this explaines a lot. 300BC is far to early to have 
anything to do with the Goths and the Wielbark culture. The Wielbark 
culture emerged only at the end of the first century BC and it did 
not emerge as the result of inward migration, but because of cultural 
and social developments emanating from the south. Also, the 
predecessor cultures of the Wielbark culture are autochonous.

If Nerman was able to show a migration from Gotland to the Vistula he 
will have provided archaeological evidence, in form of pottery types, 
burial customs etc. The fact that no modern archaeologist seems to 
know about this evidence or refer to this evidence I would be 
extremely cautious about its validity. 







> We can during many centuries B.C. detect close contacts between 
> Gotland and those areas.


How? What is the evidence?



> I agree that when the Gothic culture is formed everybody are in 
> agreement that it is from people occupying areas close to the 
Vistula.
> However we never talk about from where those different groups 
> originated centuries before.


>From exactly the same areas. The Wielbark culture and all its 
predecessor Iron Age cultures were autochonous to the area. 






> 
> Nach Professor Birger Nerman, Fornvännen 1954, Seite 274:  Aber die 
> Verbindungen Skandinaviens während der jüngeren Bronzezeit galten 
> Gebieten noch weiter im Osten als Ostrußland, und hier kommt vor 
> allem Gotland in Frage. Besonders galten diese Verbindungen dem 
> Kaukasus, wo zu der in Frage kommenden Zeit eine offensichtlich 
> reiche Kultur blühte."


So Nerman said that Scandinavia had contacts with East Russia and the 
Caucasus in the late Bronze Age, but what has that to do with the 
Goths?



> Man darf sich vorstellen, daß sich gotländische Händler während der 
> jüngeren Bronzezeit auf Wege südlich und südöstlich der Ostsee 
> begeben haben.


It is certainly possible that Gotlandic traders of the Bronze Age 
ventured to the southern coast of the Baltic, just as traders from 
the southern Baltic coast will have come to Gotland.





 Auch Leute aus anderen Teilen des Nordens haben wohl 
> diese Wege  aufgesucht, aber in bedeutendem Maße wurden die 
östlichen 
> Einflüsse sicherlich von den Gotländern an die anderen Stämme im 
> Norden vermittelt."
> 
> Dr Vello Lougas writes in "Kontakter mellan Skandinavien och 
> Östeuropa innan Vikingatiden"Die östliche Kontaktzone zwischen 
> Skandinavien und den finno-ugrischen Stämmen ist das obere und 
> mittlere Wolgagebiet. Besonders die Mariregion ist interessant, was 
> das mittlere Gebiet angeht. Es erscheint völlig klar, daß die 
> Verbindungen zwischen Skandinavien und dem Wolgagebiet während des 
> Endes der Bronzezeit und dem Beginn der Eisenzeit direkt gewesen 
> sind." 


Again, I cannot see what trade links between Scandinavia and the 
Wolga region in the Bronze Age have to do with the Goths.


Dirk





"In den siebziger Jahren wurde ein guterhaltenes Gräberfeld 
> vom Ende der Bronzezeit und dem Beginn der Eisenzeit ausgegraben, 
das 
> alte Achmulovagräberfeld, auf dem es mehr als 1000 Gräber gibt, die 
> man in die Zeit von 800 bis 500 vor Null datiert. Auf diesem 
> Gräberfeld sind viele der Skelette in einer schiffsförmigen 
> Holzstruktur im Boden eingeschlossen, es gibt aber an der 
Oberfläche 
> keine Anzeichen dafür. Entsprechende Gräber sind zur gleichen Zeit 
> nur von Gotland bekannt, wo sie in Steinschiffen und Steinsärgen 
> liegen, und an der Ostküste der Ostsee gibt es auch einige 
> Schiffsgräber".
> 
> Tore
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Tiny Wireless Camera under $80!
Order Now! FREE VCR Commander!
Click Here - Only 1 Day Left!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/