[gothic-l] Re: Scanza - Was: Trailing the Eruli in the North

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > >
> > >Tore,
> > >
> > >If we accept your explanation that the island described in
Jordanes
> > >III, 16-17 (1. sentence) was Gotland, which "Island" of Scanza
did
> he
> > >then in your opinion describe in III, 19-23 and the rest of 17?
Do
> > >you have 40 days of midnightsun in the northern part of Gotland,
> but
> > >nothing in the south? Do you have room for so many tribes at
> Gotland?
> > >Why do some of these tribes and the name of the "island" remaind
us
> > >of Scandinavia?
> > >
> > >Troels
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Troels,
> >
> > In this case I fully accept the logic of Dirk.
> > Jordanes did not know the geografhy of the Baltic.
> >
> > He has the tales about the great Scandza from where the Goths
were
> > supposed to have originated.
> >
> > He does only know that it is next to Thule.
> >
> > Procopius knows about Thule and has informers amongst the Eruls.
> From
> > there he knows quite a few tribes.
> >
> > When Jordanes writes he is confusing these two places and as the
> > Goths are a great people the place they originate from must also
be
> a
> > great place. Further he is very vague about the placement of the
> > various tribes. This is an additional indication that he does not
> > know what he is talking about.
> >
> > He thinks that Thule and Scanza is the same place although he in
> the
> > introduction has stated they were two places.
> >
> > He thinks the two sources he has end up at the same place. They
> don't!!
> >
> >
> > He has some tribal names common with Procopius. Others he has
> > obtained from other sources.
> >
> > The arechaeological finds are clear here.
> > Tore
> >
>
> Tore,
>
> Neither Jordanes nor Procopius had a clear picture of the geography
> of Scandinavian region - maybe caused by an insufficient
description
> from Ptolemeus.
>
> I also agree that Jordanes probably mixed up Gotland and the
> Scandinavian Peninsula under the name Scanza, but I am still not
sure
> how you will split his description up today (I remember some
earlier
> discussions).
>
> Do you agree, that III 19-23 describes the Scandinavian Peninsula?
>
> Troels


Hi Tore and Troels,

I think the question of what or where those places like Thule,
Scandza and the Hyperboreans are cannot be resolved in general and
often not even with regards to one specific author.

The probelem starts with the Hyperboreans. In Greek writing the
Hyperboreans were an ideal mythological and cultural example for
Greek society to live up to. They were seen as virtuous model race
living on 'the island of the blessed beyond the northern wind'. The
concept of the Hyperborean in Greek history starts off and interlinks
with the  Hellenistic discovery of Thule by Pytheas of Massalia and
later of Scadinavia by Pomponius Mela. They are all at the edge of
the known world (Scandinavia) and they cannot be reached by land or
sea by natural means. Pytheas of Massalia introduced Thule. Like the
Hyperboreans, Thule is located at the edge of the known world and is
caught between the secular world and the
numinous (sacred) world of mythology.

Thule may can be Scandinavia proper (according to most modern
scholars) or Iceland (synonymous from the medieval period onward),
but so too does Scandia, Scandza, and Scadinavia. Authors like
Pomponius Mela (Hyperboreans, Thule, Scandinavia), Tacitus (Thule &
Scandinavia), Pliny the Elder and Gaius Julius Solinus (Hyperboreans,
Thule, Scandinavia), Claudius Ptolemy (Hyperboreans, Thule, Scandia),
and Jordanes (Thule & Scandinavia) compiled overlapping traditions
collectively on the same map.

Strabo preserved some very useful fragments from 'On the Ocean' (such
as the 19 hours of sunlight per day during the winter months) and his
critical reasoning led him to hypothesize that if Thule existed, it
would lie north of Ireland or Britain which means it could be the
Shetland Islands, Hebrides, Norway, or even Iceland of modern day
so long as it was vaguely north of Ireland and Britain (Strabo,
2.1.18 & 2.5.8 & 2.5.26). Claudius Ptolemy didn't mention anything
beyond Thule's cartographic characteristics (coordinates in relation
to other land masses of 63 degrees latitude denoting its size and
shape) and the hours of daylight per day (20 hours) in direct
reference to the midnight sun, suggesting modern Iceland to be
Thule (Claudius Ptolemy, II.ii & VII.v). Pomponius Mela discusses the
mechanics of how the midnight sun operates all year round (mostly
sunlit during the summer months and mostly dark during the winter
months), (Pomponius Mela, III.6.57).

Pomponius Mela's Thule would also seem to be one of the British Isles
or Iceland distinct from the Scandinavian peninsula which he
describes separately. Pliny the Elder mentions that Thule is decreed
to have 6 months of absolute sunlight while the remaining half year
is spent in complete darkness during winter. This is exaggerated in
terms of being 24 full hours of either complete sunlight or darkness,
however please note that later Pliny interjects to say that some
other writers believe that this dualistic phenomenon occurs strictly
in the manner described above without fail while others disagree. His
Thule seems to be Norway, which is demonstrative of his lack of
awareness as to the size and content of the Scandinavian peninsula
since he discusses the population of central and southern Scandinavia
separately from Thule. Nonetheless, Pliny himself believed that the
distance and coordinate estimates were too conservative given the
innumerable barbarian tribes and spaces of uninhabited or
uninhabitable territory between and beyond their nomadic pastures.

It seems that Tacitus' Thule was Mainland of the Shetland islands,
whereas Pytheas' Thule was probably on the arctic circle (Iceland or
northwestern Norway). Martianus Capella echoed Pliny,however
contradicted other earlier sources given that he says that people in
Thule suffer from six months of complete darkness during the winter
months (24 hours per day) and didn't seem to venture an explanation
for what conditions prevailed during the other half of the year for
the inhabitants of Thule (Martianus Capella, VI.595 & VI.608-609).

Procopius' Thule was merely an allegory for the various peoples of
the entire Scandinavian peninsula compressed into a small, nearly
barren island simply due to lack of perspective in terms of the land
mass' circumference. For him, the midnight sun only took place at 40-
day intervals instead of several months and did not necessarily
adhere to a strict 24-hour schedule of complete sunlight or darkness
without fail. Jordanes mentioned Thule among many other far-flung
islands, but deliberately chose to disregard it as a populated area
and homeland of the Goths in favor of Scandza in order to encourage
of fusion of Gothic traditions with Roman traditions in terms of
manufacturing a common culture and history (Jordanes,
I.9 & Heather 1991, 60-61 & Goffart 1988, 95).

For modern historians and archaeologists, the ultimate answer to
where Thule is to be found today is unanswerable since the ancient
authors advocated different theories as to its location in order to
compete with their predecessors for literary and academic posterity
instead of taking a standardized approach.

The Romans inherited the Hellenistic tradition of Thule and
Scatinavia and preserved it within their own culture through
historical and geographic writings. Thule and Scatinavia/Scandza
became the epitome of the northern barbarians' homeland.

Cheers
Dirk

PS this is mostly from several posting by an historian on the
Germanic list.













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