[gothic-l] Re: Two Peoples

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >--- Bertil Haggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> >  But many Ostrogoths remained in the East
> >>  and
> >>  later after 450 AD established the Second Great
> >>  Gothic
> >>  Kingdom in the east. This was later referred to as
> >>  Rus.
> >
> >*****GK: This is sheer fantasy. The Gothic remnants in
> >the East did establish a statelet in the mountainous
> >area of the Crimea (just east of the Byzantine
> >holdings around Chersonesos). The tiny scattered
> >communities which remained behind on the rest of the
> >territory of contemporary Ukraine were absorbed by the
> >Slavs, while contributing some names to the leaders of
> >the 6th c. Antes and Sclaveni. The major state here
> >after 450 AD was that of the Late Huns, the so-called
> >Ulchindurs, and it is the Slavicized aristocratic
> >clans of the latter which provided the nucleus for the
> >political foundation legend of Kyivan Rus' (Kyi,
> >Schek, and Khoryv were Ulch dynasts of the late 5th
> >and early 6th c.). The Primary Chronicle of Rus'
> >recognized the Goths as a "Varangian" nation, but
> >attributed no role to them in the emergence of the
> >state. Gothic merchants from the Crimea were still
> >active (along with many other foreigners) at the court
> >of the Volynian Prince Volodymyr in the 1280's. The
> >Crimean "Gothia", by then almost completely
> >hellenized, was conquered by the Turks in 1475. To
> >view Kyivan Rus' as "the Second Great Gothic Kingdom
> >in the east" is completely irresponsible, to say the
> >very least.*******
> >
>
>
> Some sources say there was a small remnant still during Karharina
the Great.
> She replaced them with the Tartars?
> Read:
> AA Vasiliev, The Goths in the Crimea. Mediaeval academy of America,
> Publication N:o 25, Cambridge Mass. 1936
>
> Tore


Hi Tore,

I read Vasiliev's book some years ago, but don't think that he said
that Katharina II replaced the last Crimean Goths with Tartars. He
said that the Crimean Goths were largely hellenised in the middle
ages and became tatarised from the late middle ages. When the Crimea
came to Russia under Katharina in the 18th century, she resettled
small groups of Christians from the Crimea to the areas north of the
Sea of Azov. Vasiliev argued that these Christians might have had 'a
drop of Crimean Gothic blood' in their veins. Thus, Vasiliev argued
that there was really no population that could be called 'Crimean
Goths' left in the 18th century. Only the fact that their were still
Christians left after centuries of Muslim domination could indicate
that these Christian Crimeans were  decendents of Crimean Goths.

cheers
Dirk







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