[gothic-l] Re: Scanza - Was: Trailing the Eruli in the North

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> Dirk,
> This is old thoughts that have been redigested too many times.
>
> We are not talking about that but that Jordanes is confusing Thule
> and Scandzem (Gotland).
>
> Where in Tacitus do I find that he writes about Thule?
>
> Tore



Tore,

these may by old thoughts, but I don't think they are outdated. The
key message is that different authors used the names Thule and
Scandza for different geographical place and sometimes one and the
same author was not consistent. Thus, people like Jordanes and
Procopius had only a vague idea of the geographical situation in
northern Europe and when they spoke of one place they were unsure
whether to call it Scandza or Thule.

The important bit is:" Procopius' Thule was merely an allegory for
the various peoples of the entire Scandinavian peninsula compressed
into a small, nearly barren island simply due to lack of perspective
in terms of the land mass' circumference. For him, the midnight sun
only took place at 40-day intervals instead of several months and did
not necessarily adhere to a strict 24-hour schedule of complete
sunlight or darkness without fail. Jordanes mentioned Thule among
many other far-flung islands, but deliberately chose to disregard it
as a populated area and homeland of the Goths in favor of Scandza in
order to encourage of fusion of Gothic traditions with Roman
traditions in terms of manufacturing a common culture and history
(Jordanes,I.9)."

As for Tacitus, I have to check this with the source. I may have made
a mistake.


Dirk






>
>
> >
> >
> >Hi Tore and Troels,
> >
> >I think the question of what or where those places like Thule,
> >Scandza and the Hyperboreans are cannot be resolved in general and
> >often not even with regards to one specific author.
> >
> >The probelem starts with the Hyperboreans. In Greek writing the
> >Hyperboreans were an ideal mythological and cultural example for
> >Greek society to live up to. They were seen as virtuous model race
> >living on 'the island of the blessed beyond the northern wind'. The
> >concept of the Hyperborean in Greek history starts off and
interlinks
> >with the  Hellenistic discovery of Thule by Pytheas of Massalia and
> >later of Scadinavia by Pomponius Mela. They are all at the edge of
> >the known world (Scandinavia) and they cannot be reached by land or
> >sea by natural means. Pytheas of Massalia introduced Thule. Like
the
> >Hyperboreans, Thule is located at the edge of the known world and
is
> >caught between the secular world and the
> >numinous (sacred) world of mythology.
> >
> >Thule may can be Scandinavia proper (according to most modern
> >scholars) or Iceland (synonymous from the medieval period onward),
> >but so too does Scandia, Scandza, and Scadinavia. Authors like
> >Pomponius Mela (Hyperboreans, Thule, Scandinavia), Tacitus (Thule &
> >Scandinavia), Pliny the Elder and Gaius Julius Solinus
(Hyperboreans,
> >Thule, Scandinavia), Claudius Ptolemy (Hyperboreans, Thule,
Scandia),
> >and Jordanes (Thule & Scandinavia) compiled overlapping traditions
> >collectively on the same map.
> >
> >Strabo preserved some very useful fragments from 'On the Ocean'
(such
> >as the 19 hours of sunlight per day during the winter months) and
his
> >critical reasoning led him to hypothesize that if Thule existed, it
> >would lie north of Ireland or Britain which means it could be the
> >Shetland Islands, Hebrides, Norway, or even Iceland of modern day
> >so long as it was vaguely north of Ireland and Britain (Strabo,
> >2.1.18 & 2.5.8 & 2.5.26). Claudius Ptolemy didn't mention anything
> >beyond Thule's cartographic characteristics (coordinates in
relation
> >to other land masses of 63 degrees latitude denoting its size and
> >shape) and the hours of daylight per day (20 hours) in direct
> >reference to the midnight sun, suggesting modern Iceland to be
> >Thule (Claudius Ptolemy, II.ii & VII.v). Pomponius Mela discusses
the
> >mechanics of how the midnight sun operates all year round (mostly
> >sunlit during the summer months and mostly dark during the winter
> >months), (Pomponius Mela, III.6.57).
> >
> >Pomponius Mela's Thule would also seem to be one of the British
Isles
> >or Iceland distinct from the Scandinavian peninsula which he
> >describes separately. Pliny the Elder mentions that Thule is
decreed
> >to have 6 months of absolute sunlight while the remaining half year
> >is spent in complete darkness during winter. This is exaggerated in
> >terms of being 24 full hours of either complete sunlight or
darkness,
> >however please note that later Pliny interjects to say that some
> >other writers believe that this dualistic phenomenon occurs
strictly
> >in the manner described above without fail while others disagree.
His
> >Thule seems to be Norway, which is demonstrative of his lack of
> >awareness as to the size and content of the Scandinavian peninsula
> >since he discusses the population of central and southern
Scandinavia
> >separately from Thule. Nonetheless, Pliny himself believed that the
> >distance and coordinate estimates were too conservative given the
> >innumerable barbarian tribes and spaces of uninhabited or
> >uninhabitable territory between and beyond their nomadic pastures.
> >
> >It seems that Tacitus' Thule was Mainland of the Shetland islands,
> >whereas Pytheas' Thule was probably on the arctic circle (Iceland
or
> >northwestern Norway). Martianus Capella echoed Pliny,however
> >contradicted other earlier sources given that he says that people
in
> >Thule suffer from six months of complete darkness during the winter
> >months (24 hours per day) and didn't seem to venture an explanation
> >for what conditions prevailed during the other half of the year for
> >the inhabitants of Thule (Martianus Capella, VI.595 & VI.608-609).
> >
> >Procopius' Thule was merely an allegory for the various peoples of
> >the entire Scandinavian peninsula compressed into a small, nearly
> >barren island simply due to lack of perspective in terms of the
land
> >mass' circumference. For him, the midnight sun only took place at
40-
> >day intervals instead of several months and did not necessarily
> >adhere to a strict 24-hour schedule of complete sunlight or
darkness
> >without fail. Jordanes mentioned Thule among many other far-flung
> >islands, but deliberately chose to disregard it as a populated area
> >and homeland of the Goths in favor of Scandza in order to encourage
> >of fusion of Gothic traditions with Roman traditions in terms of
> >manufacturing a common culture and history (Jordanes,
> >I.9 & Heather 1991, 60-61 & Goffart 1988, 95).
> >
> >For modern historians and archaeologists, the ultimate answer to
> >where Thule is to be found today is unanswerable since the ancient
> >authors advocated different theories as to its location in order to
> >compete with their predecessors for literary and academic posterity
> >instead of taking a standardized approach.
> >
> >The Romans inherited the Hellenistic tradition of Thule and
> >Scatinavia and preserved it within their own culture through
> >historical and geographic writings. Thule and Scatinavia/Scandza
> >became the epitome of the northern barbarians' homeland.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Dirk
> >
> >PS this is mostly from several posting by an historian on the
> >Germanic list.
> >
>
> --


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