[gothic-l] Re: Trailing the Eruli in the North - solidi

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> Dirk,
>
> Thank You. I agree in your conclusions below. This points east-
wards.
>
> However this appear to be opposite the conclusions of the
> Scandinavian archaeologists claiming the change of Scandinavian
> culture 450-570 AD to derive from Franks and Alamans - and maybe
> Lombards and Anglians. Their conclusions are based on weapons,
> burials and style-elements.



Troels,

that is interesting. I agree there must have been trade links of some
sort between Scandinavia and the western kingdoms. I remember that
some Alamannic cemetaries contained fibulae of Scandinavian
manufacture, while a famous gold fibula found on Jutland was only
recently identified to have been made at a workshop in Mainz. I could
imagine that the nature of trade was somehow different. The trade
with the west may have involved smaller, less expensive items which
did not afford the transmission of substantial amounts of gold, why
the trade with the east (perhaps in luxury goods or slaves) required
substantial payments.

One the other hand, perhaps you are right and the solidi from
Scandinavia have not been used in trade, but were payments for
mercenaries. We have to remember that the Roman army was often
starved for men. Roman officials may have travelled great distances
along existing trade routes to approach chieftains and kings of
distant tribes in their effort to recruit soldiers. The supportive
chieftains may have received payment in gold. Similarly, the coins
might have been parts of the payment (or booty) of returning
mercenaries. A third possibility of subisidies or tributes seems less
likely. The Ostrogoths are known to have payed massive amounts of
gold to the Frankish kings Childebert and Theodebert for their
support against the Byzantines or at least for staying neutral. Thus,
Ostrogothic/Italian coins flowed in large quantities to the north. (I
still think it is possible that similar payments went also to
other 'allies' like the Heruls). However, the Scandinavian peoples
were not really involved in the conflicts in continental Europe at
the time and I don't think it was necessary to make subisidy or
tribute payments by Constantinopel to Scandinavia.






>
> Some few of the archaeologists mention that such characteristics
were
> also found in Bavaria - Moravia - Pannonia - Dacia before the Slavs
> and Avars arrived. Some of the style-elements were originally
> Byzantine.
>
> I do not want to draw further conclusions before analyzing the
> theoretical possibilities. Heruls, Gepides and maybe Lombards are
> obvious, but other combinations and explanations should be taken in
> consideration, as this is not just a question about the migration
of
> one single group in 512.


I think we should not underestimate the easy with which different
styles are transmitted. Long distance trade existed since neolithic
times. Also, military ventures displaced people over great distances.
I recenctly read an article about the Frankish cemetary of Krefeld-
Gellep in west Germany. Some of the graves are regarded as Sarmatian.
The grave goods are practically identical to those of stepp warrior
graves from the Danube basin and contain the famous Sarmatian
mirrors. Thus, at some point a group of Sarmatians settled for some
reason in the area of Krefeld. They may have been soldiers of the
Roman border defences, or a group of Roman federates, resettled
their  in the 3rd or 4th century (similarly to your theory about the
Western Heruls). Other, later artefacts from Krefeld-Gellep include
an Ostrogothic gold fibula showing a 'stepp-warrior', which testifies
to far-reaching influences of different styles.

Dirk




>
>
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "troels_brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > > Dirk,
> > >
> > > The map you mentioned below was realy a help showing that
> > > Constantinople probably was the mint of the Empire with the
> easiest
> > > access to the Danube except for the Ostrogothic mints -
> especially
> > as
> > > the smaller one in Thessalonica first opened in 498 AD.
> > >
> > > I also looked at other pages at that site (Smithsonian Museums)
> > > finding this statement:
> > >
> > > "Constantinople was by far the most prolific and longest
lasting
> of
> > > Byzantine mints.  The mint mark CONOB had become fixed on gold
> > solidi
> > > as gold was only struck at Constantinople during the reigns of
> > > Anastasius I and Justin I;
> >
> >
> >
> > it appears on most subsequent Byzantine
> > > gold coins regardless of whether or not they were actually
struck
> > at
> > > the capital. This was not the case with the subsidiary
> denomintions
> > > in bronze. Variations of the mint mark include CON, CONOB,
CONOS
> > and
> > > COB."
> > >
> > > Is all this correct?
> >
> >
> >
> > Troels,
> >
> > yes, but the text is refering to the Eastern Empire.
>
> So I also understood the text.
>
>  Gold was minted
> > by several mints during the reign of Anastasius I and Justing I.
In
> > fact, all gold coins of Theoderic the Great, minted at Rome and
> > Ravenna are in the names of these two emperors. The mint-mark
CONOB
> > was indeed used by other East Roman and Byzantine mints other
than
> > Constantinople. Rome used the mint mark COMOB, and more rarely
> ROMOB,
> > COMOR etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > > If we then assume, that golden solidi from around 500AD and the
> > > previus two decennies brought to Sweden from the Danube area
were
> > not
> > > Ostrogothic, we should in my opinion expect them to be stamped
> with
> > > the mark from Constantinopel - which you actually told they are.
> > >
> > > This is also what I understand from your more cautious text
> below,
> > > but to be sure, as I have not studied this area: Do you agree,
if
> > my
> > > assumption regarding payments from the Ostrogoths is correct?
> >
> >
> >
> > The fact that all solidi found in Sweden (with Gotland) are from
> > Constantinopel underscores that Scandinavia had some form of
> contact
> > with the East Roman empire. The complete absence of Ostrogothic
> gold
> > coins and coins minted under Odoaker should be indicative of the
> fact
> > that they had no or little contact with Italy. In fact, no
western
> > coins (Visigothic, Frankish, Frisian etc) have come to light in
> > Scandinavia in general, which may point to a general east-ward
> > orientation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > As the solidi in Scandinavia are all from Constantinopel and
none
> > > from the Ostrogoths it is in my opinion indicated that this is
> not
> > > due to various trade routes, but due to one or more specific
> > > connections/reasons.
> >
> >
> >
> > I think the fact that all Scandinavian solidi are from
> Constantinopel
> > partly reflects the fact that Constantinopel produced by far the
> > largest amounts of such coins. To determine why and how these
coins
> > reached Scandinavia, I suppose it would be necessary to study the
> > exact composition and nature of the finds. Tore told us that
solidi
> > hoards on Gotland presented accumulations of raw-materials for
gold-
> > smiths. I think that the solidi hoards should also be seen in
> > relation to other metal hoard, such as the big Skoevde hoard,
which
> > contained 7 kilos of gold bars and rods.
> >
> > One reason why a 5th/6th century trader might have prefered
> > Constantinopel coins over the west European coins made by Franks,
> > Visigoths and Burgundians, is the high level of stability in gold
> > content. Visigothic and Frankish coins were often underweight.
The
> > same is however not true for Ostrogothic (i.e. Italian) gold
coins.
> > They also maintained full weight and purity. However, I simply
> think
> > that Scandinavians had better access to East Roman coins than to
> > coins of western mints.
> >
> > One example of different trade links may be Britain. Here, many
> > Frankish trientes, some Ostrogothic and even some Visigothic
coins
> > have been found, which obviously reflects Britain's geographic
> > proximity to these areas and the corresponding trade links. Gold
> > coins from the Constantinopel mints on the hand have hardly ever
> come
> > to Britain.
> >
> >
> > Dirk+
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Troels
> > >
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Troels,
> > > >
> > > > the following link takes you to a map of the Byzantine/East
> Roman
> > > > mints.
> > > >
> > > > http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/nnc/byzant/imapmint.htm
> > > >
> > > > The map states a timeframe from 498 to 1453. However, the
main
> > > mints
> > > > were the same in the period 450 to 500. Of course, Carthage
was
> > > ruled
> > > > by the Vandals at that time and the Italian mints were under
> > > > Ostrogothic control from 488 or so. Also, the mints of
Sirmium
> in
> > > > Pannonia is omitted on the map. But it was a very minor mint
> and
> > > > operative only from about 504 after closing at the end of the
> 4th
> > > > century. Also, missing are most of the western mints of
greater
> > > > significance, like Arles and Lyon, but especially Milan.
Trier,
> > > which
> > > > was a major mint in the 4th century seized operations in the
> > early
> > > > 5th century. Also missing are all the Frankish and Visigothic
> > mints
> > > > like Toulouse, Bordeaux, Cologne, Marseille etc.
> > > >
> > > > I think it it fair to say that the vast majority of gold
coins
> > > minted
> > > > in the 5th century would have been produced by
Constantinopel,
> > > > Ravenna, Rome and Milan. Of these Milan and Ravenna would
have
> > been
> > > > the northern-most.
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > > Dirk


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