[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >The Harvard Professor Omeljan Pritsak in his pathbreaking
> >_The Origin of Rus'_ has brought up the extensive East
> >Scandinavian/East Germanic cultural traces and connections
> >between the Goths, Eruli in the east and Scandinavia.
> >
> >He also points to the extensive contacts between Goths/Eruli
> >plus many others and the steppe peoples. He also notes
> >that the Goths/Eruli and other East Germanic peoples can be
> >regarded as the predecessors and the models of the Vikings.
> >Here Pritsak establishes an important link between the Goths
> >in the east and the later vikings. It is thus important to see the
> >whole period 150 AD to around 1250 AD in its totality.
> >
> >Of course the contacts between the steppe peoples and the East
> >Germanics took many forms. There were military campaigns and
> >clashes, combined piratical expeditions into the territories
> >of the sedentary states, Germanic trade expeditions to the east,
> >joint settlement  and founding of kingdoms on the ruins of the
> >west Roman empire (Alans were the most prominent allies
> >in this). But we must not forget both the First and the Second
> >Great Gothic Kingdoms in the east.
> >
> >It is unfortunate that there is not a wealth of extant sources of 
these
> >highly interesting interrelations. I have just had a very 
interesting
> >exchange with an Italian scholar who pointed out the traces of
> >Iranian culture in Gothic Italy and he has promised to provide me
> >with further details as times go by.
> >
> >The problem of course in the early times is that neither group,
> >with some exceptions, were literate. One can however believe
> >in the possibility that they developed similar ideologies. For 
example
> >there is indications that Gothic mercenaries in Roman service
> >worshiped the Iranian war god Mithra. Steppe myth can have
> >been reintroduced in Scandinavia which had fallen into oblivion
> >in the agricultural life in Scandinavia but was taken up through 
the
> >contacts with the practicing Nomads. The Poetic Edda provides
> >ample examples that Attila became the main hero of Germanic epic
> >even going so far as to being presented as the embodiment of
> >an ideal ruler, although he and Ermanarik fared less well than 
Rolf Kraki,
> >for example.
> >
> >Bertil Haggman
> 
> 
> Bertil,
> The following from Samuel Laing, Heimskringla the Olaf Saga 
indicates 
> the links between the religion of the Vikings and early 
Christianity:
> 
> "It will also be observed that in all the forms of heathenism that 
> existed before Christianity, the priesthood, whether hereditary or 
> dedicated by selection to their vocation, were all a 
> temple-priesthood. They belonged to particular services, gods, and 
> temples; and not to any territorial district like a parish, or to 
any 
> particular group of people like a congregation. Christianity, 
> however, from the first appears to have been altogether 
> congregational. The bishops, elders, and deacons belonged to 
> particular congregations in particular localities, within which 
they 
> taught and governed in things spiritual. If the Christian church 
lost 
> this original and characteristic formation at Rome, it was by 
> imitating and adopting, some centuries after its first 
establishment, 
> the former heathen establishment of a temple-priesthood, a 
pontifical 
> college, and a pontifex maximus.
> Odinism appears to have been formed, like early Christianity, and 
no 
> doubt an imitation of it, upon the congregational principle. The 
gode 
> had under his charge a certain portion of territory called a 
godord, 
> similar to a Christian parish. The inhabitants of this locality 
paid 
> him certain dues as their priest and local judge. Each godord 
appears 
> to have had its own Thing, or court, for administering the laws of 
> the general or district Thing, for  apportioning  dues or taxes, 
and 
> the levies of men and ships. To this early and complete arrangement 
> of the country and population into godords, or parishes, may be 
> ascribed the great military and naval achievements of the pagan 
> Northmen. It was an effective military arrangement of the whole 
> people. As an arrangement connected with religion, its principle is 
> evidently congregational, and derived from Christianity in the 
early 
> ages when it had no hierarchy. The godord, that is, the right to 
> jurisdiction and certain dues for civil and ecclesiastical 
functions 
> within a locality, appears to have become a saleable transferable 
> property at last, just like an advowson to the cure of souls in an 
> English parish at the present day. So perfectly similar were the 
> arrangement of Odinism and Christianity, that a century after the 
> establishment of Christianity and Christian church institutions in 
> Iceland, Bishop Isleif held a godord as quite compatible with his 
> functions. The apostolic succession also, if it may be so termed, 
> from the twelve original "goder" the companions of Odin, or a 
> qualification derived from them, appears to have been considered 
> necessary for holding the office of "gode", just as a true 
apostolic 
> succession is considered in England at the present day. These are 
> coincidences with the Christian church which  can scarcely be 
> accidental."
> 
> 
> According to some theories the Heruls brought that religion with 
them 
> to the Lake Mälar Area in the beginning of the 6th century.
> 
> Tore
> 


Hi Tore,

the text above is very interesting. But if the Odin-religion was 
influenced or in its structure even based on the Christian church 
would this not be contradictory to your last statement that the 
Heruls were the carriers of this regligion? After all, these Heruls 
were apparently pagans, and according to Troels' theory, may even 
have left south-eastern Europe partly for religious reasons.

Heike Steuer "Interpretationsmoeglichkeiten archaeologischer Quellen 
zum Gefolgschaftsproblem", has investigated archaeological evidence 
for 'Gefolgschaften'. He speculates about a possible link between 
Gefolgschaften and the Wodan/Odin cult. He links Gefolgschaften of 
the Migration Age to the so-called Ring-swords and ring-pairs that 
are attached to shields, drinking horns or other implements. These  
rings were added to the weapons at a later time, sometimes even 
damaging the original decorations, and sometimes they were forcefully 
removed. Steuer sees these rings and ring-pairs as some sort of 
Gefolgschaft-membership emblem. The earliest of these ring-swords 
appeared in the Rhine-Frankish areas, were they were preceeded by so 
called gold-handle-spathas. In the late 5th and 6th century the ring-
swords spread over most of the pagan Germanic areas, possibly in 
parallel with the Wodan cult.

cheers,
Dirk



 










> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
FREE COLLEGE MONEY
CLICK HERE to search
600,000 scholarships!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vf6MrB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/