[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > > Yes, Tore, I have been sceptic concerning the
> > > Eruli influence around Lake Maelaren for years
> > > but since I read  Barthi Guthmundsson's (former
> > > Keeper of the National Atrchives of Iceland)
> > > _The Origin of the Icelanders_ I have began
> > > changing my mind. There is obviously an
> > > East Scandinavian/East Germanic influence.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You are confusing East Scandinavian with East Germanic. East 
> > Scandinavians are not East Germanic, but North Germanic.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Guthmundsson presented (unfortunately he passed
> > > away all too early in 1957) some weighty arguments
> > > for what you mention. For instance G. mentions
> > > gothi-dom (priesthood with secular leadership)
> > > as not existing in West Nordic tradition.
> > > 
> > > An interesting point is also the fertility cult of
> > > Frey that was prevalent on Iceland. That connects
> > > well with the cult that prevailed among the Goths,
> > > Eruli and others along the Baltic coast.
> > 
> > 
> > Where do you get this information that the the Frey cult 
prevailed 
> > among the Goths and Eruli?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  Therefore
> > > at least the leaders of the original Icelandic
> > > immigration could be of East Scandinavian/
> > > East Germanic origin and  it is to them we 
> > > maybe owe the Edda, the sagas. the skalds.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Once again, East Scandinavians have nothing to do with East 
> Germanic 
> > people.
> 
>   Hæ Dirk.  Would you then call the Heruli going to Scandinavia; 
> North Germanic people?? If so, then the Ostrogoths were North 
> Germanic people too??




Hi Einar,

the eastern Heruls are certainly East Germanic as were the Ostrogoths.



> In my view the Heruli group going to Scandinavia must be classified 
> as East Germanic people just like the Ostrogoths are classified as 
> such.
> The Heruli settled among East Scandinavian people. Anyway I think 
> that it is generally accepted by scholars that this Heruli 
migration 
> took place. 



Firstly, if a group of Heruls did settle in Scandinavia they have not 
made the Scandinavians into East Germanic people. Old Nordic 
languages remain completely North Germanic.

Secondly, the whole episode is based on the mentioning of one, 
difficult to use author, while no evidence, especially not for a 
large scale settlement of East Germanic people in Scandinavia exists. 
I had contact with two Swedish archaeologists recently, who both 
reject any notion of East Germanic settlements in Scandinavia. I know 
others will disagree and we don't need to go over it again. 

Thirdly, for such a poorly attested incident 'generally accepted by 
scholars' means very little. It is clearly one of these episodes 
where you either choose to believe or dis-believe as no evidence is 
available to corroborate the claim conclusively.

Finally, what you call 'generally accepted' is often nothing more 
than no direct opposition. Most scholars who do not object to this 
passage have not specifically investigated these events either, but 
only mentioned it in passing. And when they mention it, they make it 
clear that it was a very small group of Heruls that may have ventured 
north. You will also find that these scholars don't base any further 
historic events in Scandinavia on this supposed migration. Also, no 
serious Scandinavian history book that I have seen even mentiones 
this Herulic migration.

BTW, as for the numbers provided by Procopius, and which was cited to 
support the large or significant number of Heruls that supposedly 
went to Thule, a classical philologist recently pointed out to me 
that the number 200 for the entourage of the Thule-Herulic prince who 
returned to Illyria, is not believable but just another topos. 200 
was apparently the standard size for a king's following. It was also 
the number given for the retainers of an Alamannic king and also 
appears in other Roman sources. It is, according to this philologist, 
not based on real knowledge by Procopius and cannot be taken as 
indication for the size of the Herulic group in Thule.



> I understand it so after reading the posts on Germ. and 
> Gothic-L.And they settled among East Scandinavian people.
> So when you say that East Germanic people has nothing to do with 
> East 
> Scandinavian people then you must be expressing your privat opinion.


I always express my private opinion.


> Most scholars do not seem to agree with you.


'Most scholars' have not studied these events, analysed Procopius or 
areas that could provide supportive evidence. 'Most scholars' tacitly 
accept it as true, because as A. Cameron (the main expert on 
Procopius) wrote, they don't want to forego other information 
provided by Procopius. 


The bottom line is - and 'all' serious scholars will agree - that 
East Scandinavians are not East Germanic, but North Germanic.




> 
>  ***  What shortcomings specifically are you talking about? 
> And have you read his book?


Fristly, I think this is not the venue to discuss the 'origin of 
icelanders'. Secondly, I have not read the book, and I am not 
planning to do so. From your presentation of the content, i.e. Heruls 
moving to Iceland -which 'most scholars' would absolutely disagree 
with- I gathered that I would not be interested in the book.


cheers,
Dirk


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