[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Eruli in the East

Fri Jan 11 13:14:08 UTC 2002

--- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> > > > > Yes, Tore
> > > > 
> > > > people.
> > > 
> > >   Hæ Dirk.  Would you then call the Heruli going to 
Scandinavia; 
> > > North Germanic people?? If so, then the Ostrogoths were North 
> > > Germanic people too??
> >  
> > Hi Einar,
> > 
> > the eastern Heruls are certainly East Germanic as were the 
> Ostrogoths.
> 
>  Einar;.. Hæ Dirk.                                                  
> 
>       Of course it is such.I did not claim otherwise.

I am glad that you agree, because statements by another list-member 
which implied that East Scandinavians are the same as East Germanics 
started this thread.

> > Firstly, if a group of Heruls did settle in Scandinavia they have 
> not 
> > made the Scandinavians into East Germanic people. Old Nordic 
> > languages remain completely North Germanic.
> 
>   Einar; Nobody said that they made East Scandinavians into East 
> Germanic people. Neither me not Barði claims 

You obviously missed the beginning of the thread.

so.                      
> To my knowledge there were language changes in Scandinavia 
happening 
> at a rather big scale in the sixth century. This info I have from 
> some posts on Germ or Gothic-L.  
> If these changes in language were indeed happening in Scandinavia 
in 
> the sixth century on some reasonably big scale then it is normal to 
> assume that one of the explanations could be because of a 
substantial 
> influx of newcomers. That is maybe the Heruli.

We should defer this question to a linguist. Here is the article by 
Oesten Dahl on the origin of Scandinavian languages. 
http://www.ling.su.se/staff/oesten/papers/Theorigin.pdf

On page 12 or so he investigates the Upplandic language of the 6th 
century concluding that it was in no sense an East Germanic language, 
but the continuation of a language spoken their by people who had 
arrived 500 years earlier. When I had a conversation with him about 
that some time ago he stressed that there is no East Germanic 
influence on Scandinavian languages.

> > historic events in Scandinavia on this supposed migration. Also, 
no 
> > serious Scandinavian history book that I have seen even mentiones 
> > this Herulic migration.
> > 
> > BTW, as for the numbers provided by Procopius, and which was 
cited 
> to 
> > support the large or significant number of Heruls that supposedly 
> > went to Thule, a classical philologist recently pointed out to me 
> > that the number 200 for the entourage of the Thule-Herulic prince 
> who 
> > returned to Illyria, is not believable but just another topos. 
200 
> > was apparently the standard size for a king's following. It was 
> also 
> > the number given for the retainers of an Alamannic king and also 
> > appears in other Roman sources. It is, according to this 
> philologist, 
> > not based on real knowledge by Procopius and cannot be taken as 
> > indication for the size of the Herulic group in Thule.
> 
>   Einar; The numbers do not matter. At least there must have been a 
> rather big groups of warriors following the prince to protect 
him.    
> How many exactly does not matter. Interpretation of the above can 
be 
> done in many various ways.

It is always easy to just say 'this does not matter, because I must 
be right', but you provide no counter argument with that.

> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > I understand it so after reading the posts on Germ. and 
> > > Gothic-L.And they settled among East Scandinavian people.
> > > So when you say that East Germanic people has nothing to do 
with 
> > > East 
> > > Scandinavian people then you must be expressing your privat 
> opinion.
> > 
> > 
> > I always express my private opinion.
> > 
> > 
> > > Most scholars do not seem to agree with you.
> > 
> > 
> > 'Most scholars' have not studied these events, analysed Procopius 
> or 
> > areas that could provide supportive evidence. 'Most scholars' 
> tacitly 
> > accept it as true, because as A. Cameron (the main expert on 
> > Procopius) wrote, they don't want to forego other information 
> > provided by Procopius. 
> > 
> > 
> > The bottom line is - and 'all' serious scholars will agree - that 
> > East Scandinavians are not East Germanic, but North Germanic.
> 
>  Einar; Once again. I never said so. Even for the supposed Heruli 
> migration they would still be East Scandinavians but part of them 
> could then trace their ancestry to East Germanic people.

Nobody said that you said so. You came in only later.

> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > >  ***  What shortcomings specifically are you talking about? 
> > > And have you read his book?
> > 
> > 
> > Fristly, I think this is not the venue to discuss the 'origin of 
> > icelanders'. Secondly, I have not read the book, and I am not 
> > planning to do so. From your presentation of the content, i.e. 
> Heruls 
> > moving to Iceland -which 'most scholars' would absolutely 
disagree 
> > with- I gathered that I would not be interested in the book.
> 
>   ******Einar; Then I will politely assume  that you do not know 
what 
> you are talking about when criticising his writings.

I never criticised his writing, but only your interpretation and 
reporting about it.

Dirk

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