[gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

[Sahin Ahmet]

  mazgallos <cdecarvalho at sapo.pt> wrote: First of all let me make clear that genealogy is
not the main point I intended to raise in this list,
it was only the basic reason behind my doubts.
In this case it could only be important if an uninterrupted male line
could be established (and preferably more than one).
Then a DNA test would be used as a way to investigate
the coherence of the lines and of any other genetic material of the
goth people.

I don't have yet a proof of a specific male Goth ascent,
although some "nobiliarios" say so, but this is far from enough.
To be frank (oops !) I admit that we never would be able to get there,
but maybe we learn something important on the way.
Why not give it a try ?

I do agree with you in the general idea:
after some time everybody is anyone's cousin,
Arabic people for example was not a basic component
in Hispanic population because they appeared mainly in higher
ranks which, by the way, made matters worse for unequal marriages,
discounting any spurious children. It is obvious however that some
kind of physical relationship exists between the populations at both
sides of the Mediterranean: Moors they were, berberic stock. But
previous massive migrations occurred before, in pre-historical times.

Nevertheless most of the Portuguese population
(and probably the Spaniards as well) have a line that leads to
the Arabs and the Prophet himself (as Queen Elizabeth II)
via several royal descendents that mixed and disappeared within the
common people. So an "unimportant" 1/10000...0000 of ascent becomes
important due to social rank.

A Portuguese sailor arrives in Japan in the XVI century and has a
child there. Is it important for the Japanese ? Yes ! This was the
man who passed away the genes of "paramioldosis" a hereditary disease
that occurs almost only in Portugal and Japan.

So to understand ourselves nowadays I believe we must understand how
and who our ancestors were ... and a butterfly in Peking ...

Kind Regards,

Carlos Carvalho


--- In gothic-l at y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn at y...> wrote:
>
>  since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all
people in europe has some connection to other people may it be
goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains
(turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now?
possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection.   if
we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to
the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a
little bit a vague in my opinion.
>   mazgallos <cdecarvalho at c...> wrote: Good Evening,
>
> This is my introducing message.
> I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
> inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
years
> as
> farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
> area, 100
> km from Porto.
> The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
church
> patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
> occupation). The
> origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
Carvalho
> (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
> of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
documents
> by the
> second quarter of the 12th century.
>
> Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
> genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
> Coimbra (or
> more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via  Hermenegildo Mendes /
> Hermenegildo
> Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
> Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
> kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
>
> Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
> delirious
> genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
evidence
> of
> some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
> region
> itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
even
> a
> professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
ignorance.
>
> If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
> let me
> know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
> and (a
> few) certitudes.
>
> Thanks a lot,
>
> Carlos Carvalho
>
> Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
> # denotes inedit conclusions
> * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas -
Eduardo
> de
> Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
> ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
> ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga
1992
> (3rd
> volume title Carvalhos)
>
>
>
>
>
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