[gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

[F. E. Ximenez]

Dear Dirk,

faltin2001 wrote:

>  Hello all,
>
> the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
> interesting issue. However,

What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?

> Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
> Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
> Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
> been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
> distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
> mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of
> Visigoths for the
> whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
> Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
> time of the Moslem conquest.

SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE)  for not
mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis) mentions
certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths. One
such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells us: "They
wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two white
asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days went
about”. With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 ) peculiar
equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were identified
as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over A as
well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is that
they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could not
have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of leather
straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
Galdecano, P.M., “Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles” 1919: 42).
The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still alive in
710 CE,  a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many others
that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME THE
URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS ATTESTED
IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822 CE.
(Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda reinstates
the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
"OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF
THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).

> However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
> from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
> these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
> irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
> important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
> legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
> association with the previous dynasty.
>
> I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
> identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
> in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
> legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
> opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
> think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
> should mainly be seen in this context.

There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a great
majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to have
been aware of their ancestry and its implications.

> They were more a reflection of
> Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
> directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
> change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
> regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was

> mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
> assumed importance in later centuries.

The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose that any
individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
(apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous populations
of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the 40,000
Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim to be
of English descent, but is he really?.

>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> Dirk
>
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>
> --- In gothic-l at y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped at y...> wrote:
> >
> >  Hi Ximenez:
> > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
> some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
> > Ben
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01 at m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
> > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
> Carvalho)
> > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
> Portuguese
> > 
" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
> have
> > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
> 711.
> > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
> > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
> > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that 
 "the majority of Iberian
> ["mtDNA"
> > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
>
> > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
> The
> > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
> > originate in north Africa"
 "It seems therefore that the genetic
> > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
> been
> > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
> modern
> > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
> >
> > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
> right. The
> > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
> question in
> > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
> Eastern
> > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
> > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
> entered
> > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
> before
> > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
> > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
> Impressed
> > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
> > respectively.
> >
> > Enough for now-
> > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
> > Cheers,
> > Frithunanths Ximenez.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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