[gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01 at m...> wrote:
> Greetings again Dirk:
> 
> 
> > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
> >
> > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia 
Wambae
> > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani 
and
> > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, 
which
> > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
> > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered 
themselves
> > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
> > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
> > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
> > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept 
by the
> >
> > > > time of the Moslem conquest.
> 
> > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
> 
> > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE)  for 
not
> > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
> 
> > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
> > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus 
indicating
> > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also 
only
> > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
> > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
> > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
> > most of them.
> 
> What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
> Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
> sundry citations Bertil has cited?




Hi, 

I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources better 
than me. I cited only from recent academic literature on these 
questions. 






> 
> Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
> hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in 
the
> latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
> (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
> "Gothicized". 



Certainly, cultural influences moved both ways. But the Visigoths 
were only a tiny minority. The 'Tabulatura Gentes' of about 520AD 
suggestest that the Visigothic language was already dying out at this 
time, as it calls the Visigoths of Spain the 'Romanic speaking 
Goths'. With the abandonment of Arianism in the late 6th century 
there was really no barrier to complete absorbtion into an 
overwhelming majority.  





An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
> becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
> Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that 
is,
> lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the 
Visigothic
> period. 




I kind of agree. The Romano-Iberian identiy and the Visigothic 
identity were merging into the Hispanic identity. 





Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
> Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was 
anointed
> king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
> (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous 
that
> it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned). 



One thing is certain though, Visigothic history ends in 711AD. Even 
the polities that remained outside direct Arab rule did not call 
themselves Visigothic.





There seems to be
> good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
> into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many 
people
> (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
> heritage. 



In reality, however, those people will largely be of Celt-Iberian  
origin. 





It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
> palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the 
cross
> of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble 
is
> mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
> Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders 
as
> descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at 
Tenerife
> (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
> sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to 
Spanish
> mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
> wintertime. ----



Just to add another similar anecdote: When I was on Sicily in May, I 
learned that we Germans are also still called 'Suevi' there.  




> 
> Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the 
time of
> the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
> cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively 
newly
> arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
> combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of 
today. Not
> wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly 
Catholic).
> Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
> speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy 
Roman
> Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.



I agree.





> 
> > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
> > mentions
> > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the 
Visigoths.
> > One
> > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
> > us: "They
> > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
> > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by 
two
> > white
> > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those 
days
> > went
> > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
> > peculiar
> > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
> > identified
> > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V 
over
> > A as
> > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits 
is
> > that
> > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider 
could
> > not
> > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
> > leather
> > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
> > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 
1919:
> > 42).
> > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
> > alive in
> > > 710 CE,  a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
> > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
> > others
> > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods 
in
> > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is 
now the
> >
> > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), 
BECAME
> > THE
> > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER 
THE
> > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground 
of the
> >
> > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct 
Visigothic
> > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
> > ATTESTED
> > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 
822
> > CE.
> > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
> > reinstates
> > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
> > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
> > ORGANIZATION OF
> > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
> > >
> >
> >
> > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment 
that
> > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
> >
> 
> Unfortunately,  the latter is dismissed quite readily!
> 
> >
> > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
> > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate 
king.
> > In
> > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
> > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
> > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their 
own
> > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
> > > > association with the previous dynasty.
> > > >
> > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
> > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
> > probably
> > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',
> 
> When do you think the Reconquista started?
> It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
> Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
> identity since no ethnic identity had died.





I think the activities of Pelagius of Asturias are better seen as 
local uprisings and revolts. In 722AD the Christians of Spain were 
not really 'reconqering' Spain. In fact, the Moors continued to 
expand there power and influence at that time even attacking the 
Franks in 732AD. The 'Reconquista' gained real pace only at the end 
of the 12th century under Alfons VIII. and Alfons X..








> 
> > when the Visigoths were
> > seen as
> > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of 
Spain, as
> > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate 
usurpers. I
> > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
> > families
> > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
> > >
> > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for 
a
> > great
> > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem 
to
> > have
> > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
> > >
> >
> >
> > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and 
Berber
> > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage 
between
> > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.
> 
> Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
> where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
> (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim 
influence -



Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who 
had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it was 
the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the 
throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason to 
flee let alone starting a Reconquista.

The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to 
support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and co-
habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under 
the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even quite 
tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and 
apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to put 
up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.    

cheers
Dirk


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