[gothic-l] Re: ZDF Program on the Goths

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >
> >  > Dirk,
> >>
> >>  Your statement is not quite correct. I think it should 
be "research
> >>  nowadays have modified the theory that they came from 
Scandinavia"
> >>
> >>  As we earlier have discussed on this forum there was a common
> >culture
> >>  in northern Poland, Gotland and coastal areas of southern 
Sweden in
> >>  the centuries before the forming of what we today call the 
Wielbark
> >>  culture.
> >
> >
> >Tore,
> >
> >that simply cannot be correct, or are you arguing that the Okcywie
> >culture was also present in Scandinavia? To give you the answer - 
it
> >was not and it has nothing to do with any Scandinavian culture or
> >region. Thus the Wielbark culture, which included the Goths is 
based
> >on a culture that is clearly distinct and completely unrelated to 
any
> >Scandinavian culture! Surely, contacts existed, but these were
> >spuradic and alien to the Gothic Wielbark culture (see Bierbrauer 
on
> >that)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  We don't know who dominated that culture. There is clear 
evidence
> >>  that there was movements in both directions between Gotland and
> >that
> >>  area.
> >
> >
> >Which is not surprising, but archaeology can show conclusively that
> >the Goths as a tribe or better and more correctly the Wielbark
> >culture as an archaeological group and not even the predecessor of
> >the Wielbark culture came from Gotland or anywhere else in
> >Scandinavia.
> >
> >
> >
> >>  Further the Wielbark culture was formed by the people at time
> >>  time living in northern Poland.
> >
> >
> >That is undisputed - the Wielbark culture and the Gothic tribe 
formed
> >in a clearly defined and identified area of northern Poland and
> >nowhere else. BTW, even the latest Brockhaus entry on the Goths has
> >now abandoned the old thesis of a Scandinavian origin of the Goths.
> >
> >Dirk
> 
> Dirk,
> It is not only German scholars that are authorities on Scandinavian 
> archaeology.
> 
> You can't just disregard Swedish professors on Scandinavina 
archaeology.
> 
> I think they are closer to this subject.
> 
> I still point out Kaliff's book "Gothic connections" as a very good 
summary.
> I was recommended this book by the professor in Archaeology in 
> Uppsala Ola Kylberg. He is very knowledgeable in this area.
> 
> When I read your statements I get the impression that you only look 
> at one century at a time.
> 
> I fully agree that the Jordanes story with 3 ships is only a myth.
> However that does not disqualify the archaeologically close links 
in 
> the area from the late Bronze age.
> 
> Gotlands close relation to that area is still earlier. The amber 
has 
> probably been a common factor for the increased trade and movement 
of 
> people.
> 
> Professor Birger Nerman who during the wars was professor in 
> archaeology in Estonia (later in charge of the Historical museum in 
> Stockholm) and supervised  many excavations there writes in 
> Fornvännen 1954 that from younger Bronze age he has found plenty of 
> Gotlandic artefacts and graves in Kurland, now part of Lituania, 
> which he takes as Gotlandic trading posts.
> 
> Tore
> 
> --


Tore, 

It is absolutely clear from the literature that the Wielbark culture 
and its preceeding Oksywie culture are authochonous. They do not 
originate in Scandinavia; they were not formed through the merger of 
different cultures from Scandinavia or elswhere; they are not related 
to Scandinavian culture, in fact they are very distinct in every 
respect from Scandinavian cultures. This does not exclude the arrival 
of small groups or even individuals at the end of the 1st century, as 
explained by the archaeologists.

I am not a professional historian or archaeologist, but Andreas has 
made this point repeatedly and explicitly. Well, he is a leading 
expert on the Goths, why don't you just believe him?

Dirk








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