[gothic-l] Re: the Thuringians

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Andreas Schwarcz" <andreas.schwarcz at u...>
wrote:
> On 20 Nov 2002 at 16:31, faltin2001 wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, a complicated and probably in part fragile system of marital
> > alliances. I wonder if these alliances reflect
different 'statuses'
> > of the various kingdoms. Hence, the Franks were the most powerful
> > threat to the Ostrogoths. Hence, Theoderic himself would enter a
> > marriage alliance with Clodewig's daughter to ensure stability.
Other
> > female relatives were married off to less powerful kings that
were
> > either already supportive (Thuringians, Visigoths) or at least
> > potential allies (Burgundians, Vandals). Peoples like the
Alamanni
> > and the 'emerging' Bavarians were not included in this system of
> > marital alliances because they were still insignificant
(Bavarians)
> > and/or weakened without central royal leadership (Alamanni), but
at
> > any rate already under some form of Ostrogothic protectorate. The
> > relationship with the Heruls seems to stand out, because the link
> > with the Heruls was strengthened by making Rodulf, the king of
the
> > Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic. I wonder if that was a special
> > honour for a significant ally or if it was a lesser degree of
honour,
> > or if this had simply practical reasons - i.e. Rodulf already
> > married, no female relative left?
> >
> Dear Dirk,
> to some of your questions the sources will not give us any answer.
But we must avoid
> judging the importance of these alliances from the hindsight, we
must see them in the
> political context of their time. In 493 the Franks wewre not yet
the most powerful realm
> north of the Alps and clovis was not yet baptized, whereas his
sister (not his daughter)
> probably already was and Clovis was already married.



Dear Andreas,

yes, I admitt I was not fully clear about the timeframe and projected
the situation in the first half of the 6th century back to the last
decades of the 5th. On the other hand by 493AD the Franks had
destroyed the kingdom of Syagrius and where probably threathening the
Alamanns in the east and the Visigoths in the West. As such they may
have been recognises as potential threat by Theodric at that time.




That will have been the main
> reason for Theodoric's own marriage.


Agreed.


And the Visigoths and the Vandals were in the
> Nineties of the fifth century surely not less powerful than the
Ostrogoths, who had to
> consolidate their hold in Italy against a hostile Emperor in the
East.


I also agree, but I thought that the position of the Ostrogothic king
in Italy, was either openly or tacitly seen as that of an Western
Roman Emperor by the other Germanic kindoms. However, this position
or perception may only have developed later on. The fact that the
Ostrogothic kingdom could eventually not live up to this perception
is clear at least since the death of Theoderic, but possibly also
earlier when the Ostrogoths were unable to help the Visigoths in 507
or the Heruls in 509.




The reason why
> Roduulf was not bound by  a marriage, but by a Germanic custom of
adoption by
> arms, may have been that he was still a heathen. But we must
remember that
> Theodoric himself was honoured in the same way the emperor Zenon in
484 AD, so it
> certainly was at least as honourable and important as a marriage
bond.


Agreed.

best regards
Dirk



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