[gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

Wed Aug 20 12:11:51 UTC 2003

Hi, Francisc!

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
to either Celtic or German world. The more so
since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
and he considered them as possible forerunners
(among others) of the Slavs.

(If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see

http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm

 <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm> http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)

Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
the period when the Goths started their migration
to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.

The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
(Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
also incidentally.

Vladimir

**

**

-----Original Message-----
From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:19 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

Hi, Vladimir,

Thank you very much for your appreciation.

Most sources that I have read (including such authorities like Herwig
Wolfram in "Die Germanen") state that the Bastarnae were an East
Germanic tribe, although I don't know what is the support for such an
assertion. I have also read that in fact it is not clear whether the
Bastarnae were Celtic or Germanic. Wolfram considers a mixed
character of the Bastarnae, interpreting their name as "the
bastards", in opposition to the Skirians - the "sheer" (Got. skeirs),
i.e. "pure Germanic".
The Peucini were indeed a branch of the Bastarnae, who lived
(according to Ptolemy) in the Danube Delta. Their name seems to be
derivated from an island in the Danube Delta, called Peuce (although
I have also read that Peuce was in fact Leuke, the ancient name of
the Ostrov Zmeiny in the Black Sea).
Regarding the etymology of "Hrvat", I have read that it is of unknown
origin. The similarity with "harbada" (pronounced like [harvada])
arose suddenly in my head, but it could be only a mere coincidence.
Anyway, I like it too.

Very interesting your theory about the Slavic migrations triggered by
the Goths. As far as I have read, a major role in the movement of
Slavic tribes played the Avars, but it is possible that the Goths
also played a role, since the Slavic migration begun before the
arrival of the Avars.
I don't understand why you state that the South Slavic tribes who
followed the West Goths joined the Orthodox Church, since the West
Goths had nothing to do with Orthodoxism (they were Arian, and in
Spain became Catholics). As far as I know, the only Goths who joined
the Orthodox Church were the Crimean Goths (but the Gothi Minores,
who settled south of Danube with Wulfila, although initially Arian,
must have become Orthodox, parallel with their assimilation by the
Slavic population).
Regarding the origin of South Slavs, I have read in a Romanian
history book that they were rather "Sclavini" than "Antes", but there
was no argument given for this assertion.

With best regards,
Francisc

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	

ADVERTISEMENT
 <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3707890.4968055.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705297328:HM/A=1595056/R=0/SIG=124p07ne0/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitakenattogyo?YH=3707890&yhad=1595056> Click Here!	
  <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=244522.3707890.4968055.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1595056/rand=276006615> 	

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/