[gothic-l] Vladimir

Mon Aug 25 12:03:20 UTC 2003

Dear Francisc,
you remind me again commonly accepted conventional
representations on both 'Tervingi' and 'Vladimir'.
I am sincerely grateful to you, but I search just
nonconventional explanations.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

The ethnonym 'Tervingi' is found in Roman documents
rather than in old German scripts. How can we be
absolutely sure that this ethnonym had Gothic (German)
origin? For instance, as a curious thing, 'terv' in
the Finnish language means 'resin, pitch, tar, rosin'.
Further, in the Russian language, the same word is
'smola'. And now we have a parallel 'tervingi'-'smolyane'
(also an old Slavic tribe, inhabitants of Smolensk)
rather than 'tervingi'-'drevlyane'. Or maybe 'drevlyane'
and 'smolyane' were the same? At least those were
neighbors. No, I do not state 'tervingi' being derivative
from Finnish 'terva', Lord forbid! But I would not
exclude a priori any version whatever mad should it seem.

As such a "mad version", I consider the stem of 'Greutungi'
to be 'hroed', 'hroeth'. Of course, you can laugh. However-
The Latin language did not have tradition to show the
aspiration before a consonant (as opposed to the old Greek).
The aspiration could be either lost (compare Tacitus'
'reudignii') or replaced by 'g'. The diphthong 'eu' was
usually applied in Latin to represent the o-umlaut
(I refer here to the same Hungarian Anonym written in
an exaggeratedly correct Latin) where Hungarian 'eloed'
(with o-umlaut, Eng. 'ancestor') is given as 'eleud'. So,
treating 'Greutungi' as 'Hroedungi' might be not so mad.
Then, if we should admit for a moment this possibility,
we could make a next step. As far as I can judge, in Gothic
'hroed', 'hroeth' means something like 'famous, glorious,
renowned'. But a Russian word for these notions is 'slavnyj'
with the stem 'slav'. Or 'Slav'? Is not the ethnonym 'Slav'
a Slavic calque of Gothic 'hroed', 'hroeth', i.e. 'Greutungi'?

All this looks ridiculous. And it is ridiculous, but on
a single condition: if 'Tervingi' does not mean anything like
'famous, glorious, renowned' in some other language. The
Geto-Dacian language seems a best candidate for these purposes.

And returning to 'Vladimir'. You stated

"This makes more plausible the connection of Slavic "vlad-" rather
to the Germanic "wald-" than to "hlud-"".

You would be right should Vladimir be a title. But it was a name.
The component 'Wald', though relevant to titles, was unproductive
in old Germanic names while 'Hloed(r)' is very typical for them.

Best regards,

Vladimir

********

-----Original Message-----
From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor at yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 1:06 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Vladimir

Hi, Vladimir,

a little completion to my previous message, regarding your first name:
the Slavic root vlad- has the same significance like the Germaic root
wald-: "to rule" (Russian: vladit', Gothic: waldan, German: [ver-]
walten). But the Old Germanic root *hludh-/*hluth- (found, as you
said, also in Hloedr and Lotar) means "renowned, famous", and
also "loud", being derived from the Indo-European root *kleu-/*klu-
"to hear, listen" (the source, inter alia, also of the Russian verbs
slushat'/slyshat' and the noun slukh). This makes more plausible the
connectin of Slavic "vlad-" rather to the Germanic "wald-" than
to "hlud-".

Francisc

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