[gothic-l] Re: Tracing the Eruli

[george knysh]

Just a few comments on the side since some of this
material pertains to issues that I raised before.
--- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at smra.co.uk>"
<dirk at smra.co.uk> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Troels Brandt
> <trbrandt at p...>"
> <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > Hi Einar and Dirk
> >
> > I do not intend to join your discussion, but
> please read the
> > translated Procopius before you discuss – both of
> you:
>
>
>
> Hi Troels,
>
> rest assure, I read the passage many times;-)
>
>
>
>
> >
> > "For this reason the Eruli were no longer able to
> tarry in their
> > ancestral homes, but departing from there as
> quickly as possible
> they
> > kept moving forward, traversing the whole country
> which is beyound
> > the Ister River, together with their wives and
> children. But when
> > they reached a land where the Rogi dwelt of old, a
> people who had
> > joined the Gothic host and gone to Italy, they
> settled in that
> place.
> > But since they were pressed by famine, because
> they were in a
> barren
> > land, they removed from there not long afterward,
> and came to a
> place
> > close to the country of the Gepaedes. And at first
> the Gepeades
> > permitted them to dwell there and be neighbours to
> them, since they
> > came as suppliants. But afterwards for no good
> reason the Gepeades
> > began to practise unholy deed upon them. For they
> violated their
> > women and seized their cattle and other property,
> and abstained
> from
> > no wickedness whatever, and finally began an
> unjust attack upon
> them.
> > And the Eruli unable to bear all this any longer,
> crossed the Ister
> > River and decided to live as neighbours to the
> Romans in that
> region"
> >
> > ...  Pages later in the Mierow translation ...
> >
> > "When the Eruli, being defeated by the Lombards in
> the above-
> > mentioned battle, migrated from their ancestral
> homes, some of
> them,
> > as has been told by me above, made their home in
> the country of
> > Illyricum, but the rest were averse to crossing
> the Ister River,
> but
> > settled at the very extremity of the world; at any
> rate, these men,
> > led by many of the royal blood, traversed all the
> nations of the
> > Sclaveni one after the other, and after next
> crossing a large tract
> > of barren country, they came to the Varni, as they
> are called"
> >
> >
> > Remember that this was 40 years ago. The secretary
> of the general
> > described the contemporary wars in details – but
> was never exact
> with
> > events taking place long time before his own.
> >
> > Procopius knew a lot of details about the Illyrian
> soldiers, but
> not
> > about the past migration to Scandinavia. You can
> probably regard
> the
> > Heruls escaping first from Moravia, then from
> Rugiland (that was
> > where they starved because there were no one to
> plunder) and then
> > from Dacia to be demoralized refugees when they
> knocked at the
> doors
> > of the Romans, but you are not able to conclude
> their number
> > hereunder where the northgoing Heruls left their
> kinsmen. Did this
> > group really first go west and then back and far
> south along the
> > Danube until they turned around once more and went
> on all the way
> to
> > Thule. Why did they not find a place on their way
> between the Slavs
> > and Varni if they were so weakened?
>
>
>
> We will likely never know, but there are hundreds of
> reasons one
> could come up with
Maybe the Varnians did not want
> them?

*****GK: More likely the Varnians accepted the Eruli
of Varnian origin. The rest then moved on.*****

 Maybe they
> tried to settle there, but were expelled
> (unknowingly to Procopius)?

*****GK: This is based on nothing at all.*****

> Maybe, the Gautr had deliberately invited the Heruls
> as mercenaries
> to fight against the Svear?

****GK: This does not fit the better interpretation of
the Eruli settling "next to" the Gauts. But then again
perhaps some Eruli were of Gautish origin.****

 Maybe the Gautr had
> provided them with
> the resources for the journey?

*****GK: Possible with respect to some of the Eruli. A
side thought: perhaps the "Illyrian" Heruls suffered
famine in Rugiland because most of the stocked
supplies were taken by the groups which trekked
northward.*****

 Maybe they stayed
> with their former
> allies the  Varni, and Procopius confused
> placenames, as he did so
> often north of the Danube?

******GK: What would the confusion consist in?*****

 Again, we will never
> know, but whatever we
> make of it I cannot see how the report by Procopius
> can be read as a
> mass migration of tens of thousands of well
> organised Heruls.

*****GK: After further discussion the numbers at the
start were reduced to ca. 20,000, with the further
assumption that they diminished as the trek proceeded,
so that only a few thousand may actually have settled
"next to the Gauts", including many of "the royal
blood". The larger number ("Tens of thousands")was
posited earlier on the basis of the second fantastic
claim by Procopius, viz., that "most" of the initial
Herulian contingent which crossed the Danube was
subsequently slaughtered by the Romans.*****
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The description of their
> > departure is not strong enough to convince that
> Procopius really
> > knew. He was unclear and the "picture" he used was
> maybe just
> > symbolic in order to hide his own lacking
> knowledge. Therefore I
> > GUESS they separated already in Moravia trying
> first the Moravian
> > Gate against the Vistula, where they were
> surprised by so many
> > westgoing groups of Slavs that they preferred to
> follow the western
> > route through barren country instead – and
> guessing is what you are
> > doing too.
>
>
>
> This really, is a guess as you say yourself and as
> such it lacks any
> foundation in the sources. I just hope you are not
> using this guess
> for further analysis.

*****GK: You may not have noticed that Troels contends
that you are also guessing. I agree with him, and feel
that his guess has more substance than yours.*****
>
>
> Dirk
> >
>
>
>


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