[gothic-l] Re: Analogy between fate of Eruli and Burgundians?

[Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk@smra.co.uk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > I still maintain that it is worth considering the
> > fact that the
> > Illyrian (and Thule) Heruls bore seemingly
> > non-Germanic names
> > (Grepes, Ochos, Datius, possibly even Aordos),
> > causing one linguist
> > to state that 'one is at a loss to comment on them',
> > which could be
> > indicative of a split-up along ethnically defined
> > lines, with the
> > Germanic Heruls moving to Italy and staying with the
> > Langobards and
> > the rest forced to wander around, exporing other
> > options. I know of
> > course that the evidence for this is slim at best,
> > but at least there
> > might be an indication here.
>
> *****GK: One shouldn't make too much of the
> non-Germanic names however. Note the following in
> Jordanes(GETICA IX):
> "nemo qui nesciat animadvertat usu pleraque nomina
> gentes amplecti, ut Romani Macedonum, Greci Romanorum,
> Sarmatae Germanorum, Gothi plerumque mutuantur
> Hunnorum." Such borrowed names are a factor in the
> determination of heterogeneity, but do not
> automatically suggest it in the absence of other
> indicators (which, thankfully, are there). There was a
> similar debate a few years ago concerning the
> ethnicity of the "Slavs" and "Antes" of the 6th c. The
> late Harvard linguist Struminski argued that they were
> in fact Goths (on the basis of the names of most of
> their recorded leaders). But one could have made the
> same point about Attila if all we had to work with was
> his name.*****


That is of course true. However, no other Germanic royal dynasty of
that period resorted to foreign names (including Persian and Roman
names) as the Illyrian Heruls. To assume some ethnic connections to
these choices seems reasonable.





>
>
> >
> > One (hopefully) final point. The Herulic armies
> > which figured 3,000
> > and 1,500 respectively may at that time already have
> > attracted new
> > followers of the regions where they were stationed.
> > We know that the
> > Visigoths were several times in their history
> > supplemented by large
> > numbers of slaves, Roman peasants and miners who
> > became Visigoths.
> > Similarly, a unit of Heruls does not have to include
> > only the
> > remnants of the once powerful Herulic tribe.
>
> *****GK: That is a good point. How many such "new
> recruits" are to be counted among the 1500+3000 is of
> course difficult to say, but this goes some way
> towards revising your earlier view of the Eruli as an
> insignificant and dilapidated people after 509. *****
>
>


No, this does not imply that I have rivised J. Werner's and other
scholars' view that the Heruls of the period after the destruction of
their kingdom were a dilapidated people. It just means that we cannot
use these number to extrapolate earlier strenght. Note, we had also
strong Roman army units like Batavians, Sugambrians and others who as
ethnic groups were at the time insignificant or non-existent.


Dirk




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