[gothic-l] Re: Analogy between fate of Eruli and Burgundians?

[george knysh]

--- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at smra.co.uk>"
<dirk at smra.co.uk> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, george knysh
> <gknysh at y...> wrote:
> > --- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
> > <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > I still maintain that it is worth considering
> the
> > > fact that the
> > > Illyrian (and Thule) Heruls bore seemingly
> > > non-Germanic names
> > > (Grepes, Ochos, Datius, possibly even Aordos),
> > > causing one linguist
> > > to state that 'one is at a loss to comment on
> them',
> > > which could be
> > > indicative of a split-up along ethnically
> defined
> > > lines, with the
> > > Germanic Heruls moving to Italy and staying with
> the
> > > Langobards and
> > > the rest forced to wander around, exporing other
> > > options. I know of
> > > course that the evidence for this is slim at
> best,
> > > but at least there
> > > might be an indication here.
> >
> > GK: One shouldn't make too much of the
> > non-Germanic names however. Note the following in
> > Jordanes(GETICA IX):
> > "nemo qui nesciat animadvertat usu pleraque nomina
> > gentes amplecti, ut Romani Macedonum, Greci
> Romanorum,
> > Sarmatae Germanorum, Gothi plerumque mutuantur
> > Hunnorum." Such borrowed names are a factor in the
> > determination of heterogeneity, but do not
> > automatically suggest it in the absence of other
> > indicators (which, thankfully, are there). There
> was a
> > similar debate a few years ago concerning the
> > ethnicity of the "Slavs" and "Antes" of the 6th c.
> The
> > late Harvard linguist Struminski argued that they
> were
> > in fact Goths (on the basis of the names of most
> of
> > their recorded leaders). But one could have made
> the
> > same point about Attila if all we had to work with
> was
> > his name.
>
>
> That is of course true. However, no other Germanic
> royal dynasty of
> that period resorted to foreign names (including
> Persian and Roman
> names) as the Illyrian Heruls. To assume some ethnic
> connections to
> these choices seems reasonable.

*****GK: There is a difference between "ethnic
connection" (either traditional name-giving patterns
or the result of current marriage contacts) and
"ethnic split-up". I am not denying the heterogeneity
of the Eruli. What I am saying is that your argument
for this fact is not a strong one if based principally
on the "odd" names of Erulian leaders. Given the
comment by Jordanes (which applies principally to East
Germanic groups) and the Slavic analogy, your
assumption of an ethnic split-up needs additional
corroboration. Which of course exists.******
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > One (hopefully) final point. The Herulic armies
> > > which figured 3,000
> > > and 1,500 respectively may at that time already
> have
> > > attracted new
> > > followers of the regions where they were
> stationed.
> > > We know that the
> > > Visigoths were several times in their history
> > > supplemented by large
> > > numbers of slaves, Roman peasants and miners who
> > > became Visigoths.
> > > Similarly, a unit of Heruls does not have to
> include
> > > only the
> > > remnants of the once powerful Herulic tribe.
> >
> > GK: That is a good point. How many such "new
> > recruits" are to be counted among the 1500+3000 is
> of
> > course difficult to say, but this goes some way
> > towards revising your earlier view of the Eruli as
> an
> > insignificant and dilapidated people after 509.
>
> >
> >
>
>
> No, this does not imply that I have rivised J.
> Werner's and other
> scholars' view that the Heruls of the period after
> the destruction of
> their kingdom were a dilapidated people. It just
> means that we cannot
> use these number to extrapolate earlier strenght.

******GK: In that case your argument is not a good one
and I agree with Troels' evaluation of it. I'm afraid
you can't have it both ways.*****


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