[gothic-l] Re: Analogy between fate of Eruli and Burgundians?

[george knysh]

--- "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at smra.co.uk>"
<dirk at smra.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > Procopius tells us that the Illyrian Heruls
> > > > > harrassed the local Roman
> > > > > provincials. This alone could have been
> enought
> > > for
> > > > > slaves and minor
> > > > > peasants to join the marauding groups of
> Heruls.
> > > >
> > > > GK: A comment in passing. The "joiners"
> > > would
> > > > have been very few indeed, since otherwise
> this
> > > would
> > > > have precipitated a social crisis. So in a
> very
> > > real
> > > > sense this red herring by Dirk doesn't matter
> in
> > > the
> > > > least, and does not influence retroactive
> > > computation
> > > > of Illyrian-Erulian strength on the basis of
> > > > Procopius' figures of 3000+1500.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > George,
> > >
> > > this is a completely empty argument it seems to
> me.
> > > Just because you
> > > assume that this would cause a 'social crisis'
> you
> > > reject the
> > > possibility of Roman slaves and disgruntled tax
> > > payers to join the
> > > remaining Heruls. Large numbers of slaves, mine
> > > workers and
> > > agricultural labourers have joined Visigoths and
> of
> > > the Sueves of
> > > Spain we hear that they once even joined forces
> with
> > > very large
> > > groups of Bacaudae, yet we never hear that his
> has
> > > caused any 'social
> > > crisis'. You cannot reject an argument just
> because
> > > assume that
> > > something might have happened, for which you
> have no
> > > basis
> > > whatsoever. Hence, mine is a perfectly valid
> > > argument and it does
> > > matter for any attemt to extrapolate tribal
> > > strength.
> > >
> > > Dirk
> >
> >
> > GK: No, Dirk. it is your argument which is
> both
> > empty and a red herring. It is obviously intended
> to
> > question retroactive computations of Erulian
> military
> > strength on the basis of the figures given by
> > Procopius (1500+3000), which you initially had no
> > means of dealing with other than by asserting
> > (arbitrarily) that they were inflated.
> When that
> > didn't work you tried the route of large "local"
> > additions to the original Eruli. But as you like
> to
> > say whenever you are displeased with someone
> else's
> > somewhat more probable speculative reconstructions
> > (more probable than yours), there is not a shred
> of
> > evidence either in Procopius or anywhere else that
> > this actually happened. In fact, given his nasty
> > descriptions of the Eruli, it is precisely the
> reverse
> > which is the more arguable, and your references to
> > different situations elsewhere are quite
> irrelevant to
> > the issue at hand.
>
>
> We are spinning in circles I'm afraid.

*****GK: Only because you insist on fighting your
battle of Masada.*****

 Ok, one final
> time:
> Procopius writes that the Illyrian Heruls harassed
> the Roman
> provincials. In other situations this kind of
> activity has caused
> local slaves, surpressed agricultural labourers and
> others to join
> the tormentors of their 'former' masters. I think
> you will have to
> agree to this; it is both plausible and in several
> other events well
> attested in the sources.

*****GK: The point is that it is not attested in the
case of the Illyrian Eruli.*****

 Whether this happened or
> not is impossible
> to say.

*****GK: I'm willing to admit that it might have, but
hardly to the same extent as elsewhere, to say the
least.*****

 Yet, any attempt to extrapolate from the
> military strength of
> 1500+3000 will at least have to take this problem
> into account.

*****GK: I don't think so. Not if it's a question of a
few dozen "joiners", and you can't really prove
otherwise. THAT is why I think your argument is a red
herring.******
>
> Also, I have shown that using your own assumptions
> (factors)

*****GK: They are not my assumptioms but those of
Procopius. What you have "proved" is that one can't
claim that the Eruli were "annihilated" by both
Lombards and Romans and still managed to field 4,500
warriors in the 540's except by denying either the
"annihilation" or the 540's numbers. You chose to do
the latter. I opted for the former as more likely.****

 that the
> strenght which you had calculated for the Heruls was
> indeed
> completely implausible. This in turn makes this kind
> of
> supplementation from disgruntled local slaves even
> the more
> plausible.

*****GK: This is a complete non-sequitur. The correct
argument is that starting from the figure of 4500 for
the Illyrian Eruli in the 540's, we cannot accept the
notion that these were the remnants of an original
(pre-509) Erulian military which had suffered two
"annihilations" and lost much of its strength due to
various migrations.*****

 Yet, you choose to dismiss your own
> factors and
> (arbitrarily) made the claim that Procopius'
> statement that 'most'
> Heruls were killed in the battles with Langobards
> and Roman were pure
> fantasies.

*****GK: This is your usual twisting and turning. What
I dismissed was the Procopian claim that "most"
Erulians were killed by the Lombards in 509, and that
"most" of those who crossed the Danube in 512 were
subsequently killed by the Romans, as incompatible
with the reliable figure of 4500 Illyrian Eruli
warriors in the 540's. It is you who uncritically
accepted Procopius' fantastic claims of a double
annihilation and rejected his very plausible numbers
for the Illyrian Eruli military in the 540's.*****
>
> Also, I have not arbitrarily argued that Procopius'
> numbers are
> inflated, but just pointed to the fact that many of
> the troop
> strength which he gives in this writing is indeed
> inflated, which in
> turn should make us wary about the numbers at hand.

******GK: More twists. You did argue that his figures
for the 540's Illyrian Eruli were inflated, and failed
to prove that he was unreliable as to numbers in
connection with Byzantine forces. Your examples of
inflations were irrelevant to this issue.*****
>
>
> Finally, I don't even see what we are arguing about.

*****GK: Then why argue? Give it up and move on. And
don't forget to reread Wolfram on the Taifali.****


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