[gothic-l] Re: Analogy between fate of Eruli and Burgundians?

[Troels Brandt <trbrandt@post9.tele.dk>]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Dirk Faltin <dirk at s...>"
<dirk at s...> wrote:
> >
> > * Explained later by GK (MSG 6913):
> > > ... Some stayed with the Varni, some stayed
> > > with the Dani, and there was probably further
> > > dispersal. But a very significant "core" did
> > > make it next to the Gauts.*****
>
>
> Hi Troels,
>
> as you well know, there is no evidence that Heruls stayed with the
> Varni or with the Dani. Also there is very little evidence that
> a 'very significant core' made it next to the Gauti. The latter is
> clearly a question of definition and interpretation, though. I
think
> it is exactly this lack of sources which compells modern historians
> to mention this episode -if at all- only in conditional and general
> terms, without putting any additional detailed speculation into it,
> such as the joining by other tribes, the settling among Varni and
> Dani etc.

Hi Dirk

You are quoting George and not me above. The consequence of your new
argument will be, that the number arriving to Scandinavia, which
(theoretically) could be as low as a few thousands, shall be
increased to 20.000 following your compromise with George - otherwise
you would have misused George's revised standpoint (MSG 6912/6913) in
your conclusion in MSG 6939. I accepted your conclusion on that basis
in order to close the discussion - and I will accept your last
statement too.


> BTW, Judith Jesch's book on early Scandinavian history is now out.
> This edited volume reportedly includes all the latest research on
> early Scandinavian history from ca. 500AD. Once it is available in
> the British Lib. I will check whether any of the contributors
regard
> a 'significant' Herulian contribution as a viable theory or not.


You have written this several times before. There is a world between
the Scandinavian "school" and the attitude you possibly present in
your MSG 6818 at Germanic List ("Langobardic fibulae found"). In
general Scandinavian scholars are against combining archaeology and
ethnicity, and most of them have neglected the historical mentioning
of the Heruls for years. The authors of this new book are wellknown
archaeologists writing a lot of articles and books all the time. They
have however given the Heruls a note in the "official"
book "Vendeltid" (1980) from the Historical Museum of Sweden
mentioning a Herulic origin in Scandinavia, ErilaR and Jordanes, but
not a word about Procopius' reports regarding 512 and 546 AD. I do
not know what you expect to happen now. If they are provoked to write
anything about the Heruls this time they will have to defend their
earlier silence, unless new convincing DNA-analyses or finds are
published in the book.

Please also remember that no German or Easteuropean archaeologists
have been able to show where the Heruls - by you regarded as the
majority - settled in Moesia/Dacia ripenses. Neither have they been
able to tell where the Heruls lived at the Black Sea and they have
only been able to guess at some "royal" burials in Moravia, where the
Heruls were known to be the most numerous people. How do you by
archaeology determine the ethnicity of a mixed vagrant people living
by theft and plundering based on their (stolen) remains? By their
burial costums you will say - but Procopius told they used cremation
and no cremation is found at any of their livingplaces except in
Scandinavia (and maybe those at the Black Sea mentioned by George).

Spare the poor listmembers from the endless thread you indicate by
mentioning this book.

Troels




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