[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Getae

[Francisc Czobor]

Hi, Sunny

This book of Lundius is based on two wrong identifications:
1. Getae = Goths
2. Goths = Swedes
The first error is obviously inherited from Jordanes.
The second one was current in Sweden until modern times.
Even if we admit, with Jodanes, the Scandinavic origin of the Goths
(which is largerly contested now), the Modern Swedes are not the
descendants of the historical Goths, who ended up assimilated in
Italy, Spain, Lower Danube, and Crimea.
Now, regarding the wrong identification Getae = Goths.
It is based on two aspects:
1. The coincidental ressemblance of the words "Getae" and "Got(h)i"
2. The fact that in the 4-5th century, Goths settled in Dacia, the
territory of the Getae.
In antiquity, the territory of Dacia (corresponding roughly to that
of today's Romania, my country) was populated by Northern Thracian
tribes. They were generically designated as Getai (in Greek) / Getae
(in Latin) and Daci (in Latin). The two terms were almost equivalent,
but Getae referred mainly to the tribes along the Danube, whereas
Daci to the tribes within the Carpathian mountains (today's
Transylvania, in central and western Romania). Now is admitted that
Daci and Getae represented the same people and are referred to by
many historians as "Daco-Getae".
The Daco-Getae where Thracian (fact confirmed already by antic
historians, like Herodot) and spoke a Thracian language, fact
attested by the few remnants of their language. Thracian was an Indo-
European language group of the "satem" branch, being thus more
related to the Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian and Phrygian-Armenian
language groups, and fairly distant from the Germanic languages, that
belonged to the "kentum" branch of the Indo-European family (together
with Italic, Celtic, Greek, Hittito-Luvite and Tocharian).
Even the name of Zamolxis, called by Lundius "first legislator of the
Getae", demonstrates these linguistic links. Zamolxis was in fact a
sort of chthonian (earth-linked) divinity, his name containing the
root zam-, related to Avestan zam- "earth", Slavic zemlia "earth",
Lithuanian zemai (?) "earth". Generally speaking, all the Daco-Getic
personal and geographical names are not Germanic at all.
Thus, linguistically it is a nonsense to identify the Thracian Getae
with the Germanic Gothi.
Now, abot the history of the Getae and Goths in Dacia (I write from
my memory, because in this moment I have no history book at hand).
The Daco-Getae formed in the first century BC a kingdom joining the
whole territory of Dacia and some surrounding territories under the
king Burebista. After his death this kingdom disintegrated in smaller
political structures. In the first century AC, king Decebalus re-
united them in a kingdom covering the whole territory of Dacia. After
his defeat in the war of 105-106 AD with the Roman Emperor Traianus,
Dacia became a province of the Roman Empire. Being a strategical
province, rich in gold and salt and very important for the defense of
the Empire, Dacia was strongly colonized by Romans and became quickly
romanized. But in the following century, the pressure of the
barbarian peoples (mainly Goths) increased, and in the year 271 the
Emperor Aurelianus decided to live Dacia, the Danube being more
easier to defend as a frontiere. Immediately after the departure of
the two Roman legions that were stationed in Dacia (V Gemina and XIII
Macedonica), the Goths occupied the former Roman province. These were
the Visigoths, who ruled in Dacia (that at that time was called
also "Gothia" - "Dacia ubi Gothia") only approx. one century, until
they were defeated by the Huns and fled south of Danube. The Huns
replaced them with their allies, the Ostrogoths, who remained in
Dacia still approx. another century, until the Hunish empire
disintegrated after the battle of Nedao. After this event, the
Ostrogoths left Dacia and went to Italy, being replaced by the
Gepids, close relatives of the Goths, who remained in Dacia approx.
150 years (if I'm not wrong), after that being replaced by the Avars
(a Turkic nomadic people coming from Asia). Regarding the Daco-Getae,
during the Roman rule they mixed with Roman colonists and becane
romanized (in historic literature being known as Daco-Romans). After
AD 271, some of them left Dacia together with the roman legions and
settled in south of Danube, some of them remained and suffered the
rule of Visigoths, Huns, Ostrogoths, Gepids, Avars, etc., their
descendants being the Romanians of today.
In conclusion, if in 1687 it was still possible to make such name-
based identifications like Gothi = Getae, now this procedure is
largerly regarded as hazardous and unscientific.
Briefly: Getae = Daci, lived in Dacia, became romanized, and their
descendents are the Romanians.
The Goths and Gepids stayed in Dacia altogether approx. 3 and 1/2
centuries, then left it (Ostrogoths for Italy, Visigoths for South
Gallia and then Spain) or became assimilated.
Final conclusion: the equation Getae = Goths is wrong!

With best regards,
Francisc


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Sunny" <sunnyjat12002 at y...> wrote:
> Hi Francisc and Dirk,
>
> Call me stubborn, but please your views on this 1687 Scandinavia
work:
>
> http://www.dacia.org/lundius/clundius-eng.pdf
>
> Regards,


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Save up to $400 on all notebooks.
Get the notebook you want with all the features at a price you love. Price after rebates and savings
http://us.click.yahoo.com/gx2HjB/wwSGAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/