[gothic-l] Re: Francisc

Wed Jul 9 16:07:04 UTC 2003

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "sunnytjatsingh" 
<sunnytjatsingh at y...> wrote:
> Hi Francisc, 
> 
> "For classical writers, Goths were "Scythian", Huns 
were "Scythian", 
> etc. They used the term "Scythian" in a very large sense, as I 
wrote 
> before, with the meaning "barbarians coming from north-east"."
> 
> I agree "Scythian" was used comprehensively to address to people 
> coming from the geographical region of "Scythia", this was replaced 
> gradually by "Sarmatia".

I would argue that the term Scythia remained largely independent of 
Sarmatia. Hence, ancient authors were relatively clear which peoples 
to subsume under the Sarmatian umbrella, which included Alans, 
Jazygians, but never Goths. 

> 
> "For them, the languages spoken by all these barbarians did not 
> matter. 
> The Greeks considered all non-Greeks "barbarians", word which means 
> literally "stammerer", "stutterer", because for the Greeks any non-
> Greek language was not a real language, but a mere stammer 
> (similarily the Old Indians called "Mleccha" all the tribes 
speaking 
> non-Indic languages). So it was of no worth to study the languages 
of 
> the "Barbarians". Later, adopting this model, the Romans considered 
> all non-Greeks and non-Romans as "Barbarians". So for classical 
> authors it didn't have any importance what languages spoke 
different 
> kinds of Barbarians, since all these were in their view stutter, 
> stammer.
> 
> Yes Barbarian is derived from something like barbarous, meaning a 
non-
> Greek speaker.  The proud Greeks saw any language different from 
> theirs as a non-Greek tongue.  
> 
> "So they didn't see the connection between the Gothi and the 
> Germani, but classifed the Goths as "Scythians" taking into account 
> only geographic and cultural aspects (it is known that the Goths 
were 
> influenced in their material culture by Iranic peoples and Huns)."
> 
> The Alanic (Massagetae) culture and Gothic culture were a lot 
closer 
> than people will admit.  There was a great deal of intermarriage 
> between the two.  For example, Emperor Maximinus had a Gothic 
father 
> and Alan mother.  Further, according to Musset, some classical 
> writers took Alans to be a branch of Goths.
> 

In fact, Maximiuns' supposed Gothic/Alanic ancestry is very uncertain 
and only introduced by later sources. We know that contemporaries 
associated him with Thrace, as his side-name Thrax indicates. 
Similarly, his origin from peasant stock is likely also a slander of 
the successive years, which was started by the senatorial elites, 
which utterly disliked him. 

In general, however, Alanic and Gothic intermarriage will of course 
have taken place. Jordanes' somewhat confused Gothic/Alanic origin is 
an example in case. 

> What's more is both groups practiced artificial skull deformation – 
> which suggests a very close association between the two.  
> Incidentally, no skull deformation was found in the graves of the 
> Huns, leaving the origin of skull deformation, probably with the 
> Alans.   
> 

In fact, the Goths practiced skull deformation far less than other 
Germanic groups. Hence, concentrations of skull deformations have 
been found among the Thuringians, Heruls, Gepids, Alamanns and 
Burgundians. However, a Sarmatian/Alanic origin for this practice is 
widely believed to be the most plausible explanation. 

> Cultural fusion or same people, different waves?
> 
> "But today, a very important criterion for classifying peoples is 
> their languages. And we know that the Goths spoke a Germanic 
> language. We also know that the Scythians and the Getae did not 
speak 
> Germanic languages. So today it is no more acceptable to state that 
> the Goths were Scythians or Getae. Of course, during their 
migrations 
> the Goths might incorporate also foreign elements, including 
possibly 
> Scythians and Getae, but these elements were quickly assimiled, 
since 
> the Goths kept their Germanic language. The language used by 
Wulfila 
> in AD 340-380 for his Bible, taking appart the Greek-Latin 
loanwords 
> introduced by Wulfila for biblic terms, was purely Germanic, with a 
> few probably Slavic elements (2-3 words). No trace of "Scythic" 
> (Iranic) influence, no trace of "Getic" (Thracian) influence. Only 
> the laguage of the 16th century's Crimean Goths has some Iranic 
> influence (3 words out of 80 in Busbecq's list), which is 
explainable 
> by the centuries of living together and mixing of Goths and Iranic 
> Alans in Crimea (the Greek-orthodox bishopric of Crimea was 
> called "bishopric of Goths and Alans")."
> 
> I believe language is an important tool, but language in my opinion 
> is no proof of race.  For example, in India, we saw incursions of 
> Iranian Sakas, Yuezhi, and White Huns (Turkic speaking), though all 
> these groups had taken to an Indo-Aryan (Sanskrit) based script and 
> tongue.  
> 
> The line Indo-Scythian kings initially had very Iranian sounding 
name 
> like Azes, Azileses, but rapidly changed to Rudradaman and 
Vasudeva – 
> they were Indianized.  Why couldn't the same have happened in the 
> west?  The Thracian Getae as they were an early group, could have 
> lost their Iranian tongue?  

The Thracians certainly lost their language under Roman occupation. 
Nevertheless, the Goths were a Germanic people as Francisc explained 
in detail. They may have incorporated some Roman provincials of 
Thracian-Getic decent, but those were assimilated without any impact 
on the Germanic/Gothic language. 

<snip> 

> So then is it impossible that the Goths could have lost their 
tongue 
> in a sea of Germanic speaking peoples?  

Yes, because the Goths were Germanic. They have always been Germanic. 
In fact, they were one of the largest and certainly the most dominate 
East Germanic group of all. In addition, all we know about Gothic pre-
Christian religion and cult is essentially Germanic as well. 

Cheers
Dirk 

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