[gothic-l] Re; Dirk

[Sunny]

Hi Dirk, 

"It is called Getica, because the learned but wrong perception of the 
time was that the Goths are the Getae."

Learned, but wrong?  Where's your proof?

"If you read the Getica you will find that Jordanes/Cassiodorus in 
their search for an origin for the Goths identified them with three 
different groups which had 
similar sounding names, the Gautai, the Getae and the Gog and Magog."

I thought earlier you wrote that there is NO linguistic proof behind 
Getae and Goths: 

"Not true, Francisc has provided the linguistic argument, I have 
pointed to the literature which would have easily answered all the 
questions, and indeed would have made this discussion obsolete."

and now "similar sounding names"?   You know, Gog and Magog of the 
Rabbinical tradition seems peculiarly similar to Getae and 
Massagetae?  Thoughts?

"Also, Jordanes' ethnic background is not quite as clear. Some 
scholars have regarded him of Alanic origin, or mixed Alano-Gothic 
origin. At any rate the fact that he did grow up in a Gothic millieu 
but nonetheless knew very little even about relatively recent Gothic 
history is a good pointer to the value and degree the carmina prisca 
was extant and useful."

Yes some say he was a Goth, others say he is of mixed ancestry 
Alan/Goth.  I think Mierow claims that Jordanes was certainly a Goth, 
and this is confirmed by Heather.  

"I never twisted this argument, I only simplyfied it since arguing 
that the Goths are Getae and that Getae are Jats is not much 
different in my view from arguing that Goths are Jats."

Actually, these are two very different concepts.  Accepting that this 
theory is true, just for kicks, no one would ever be able to say the 
Jats are Goths.  One can say that Jats and Goths are originally 
descended from a common origin – can't be equated – one group 
migrated west, the other migrated south – destinies were shaped by 
regions of completely difference social customs, geography, weather, 
political history, resources, etc.  However, still a common Indo-
European, but according to the above theory, a less generic and more 
precise Getic origin.  

"Up to the present? Which mainstream and reputable author makes this 
identification? The authors you mention above belong mostly to the 
18th and 19th or early 20th century. Again, I strongly recommend that 
you look at the evidence provided by modern mainstream research on 
Gothic history."

Kephart, C. Races of Mankind Their Origin and Migration. New York. 
Philosophical Library: 1960.

Dhillon, B.S. History and Study of Jats with References to Sikhs, 
Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, Goths, and Jutes. Ottawa. Beta 
Publishers: 1994.

Also, does "mainstream" mean that is it correct?  

"Neither Wolfram nor Christensen would (in their wildest dreams) 
argue 
that the Goths were ethnic Scyths."

There is no such thing as an "ethnic Scyth" – Scythia/n is a 
geographic term.  Getae is an ethnic term.  

"Yes, does Kephart provide any evidence as well? You are still and 
simply quoting (outdated) claims made almost 50 years ago. What 
needed is evidence. On what basis did he make the claim?"

1960 is outdated?  He dedicated an entire chapter of his book to the 
Getic or Gothic nation.  

Alexander the Great fought against the Massagetae while in Central 
Asia around 330-328 BC) and as a result developed new military 
tactics from the Macedonian.  T. Sulimirski says more precisely in 
his book The Sarmatians: 

"The destruction by Alexander the Great of the Achaemenid (Persian) 
monarchy and his subsequent conquest of Bactria and Sogdiana in 330-
328 BC also influenced the history and development of all the peoples 
of Central Asia. Neither the Chorasmians nor the Massagetae were 
subjugated by Alexander, but as a result of having to fight against 
the highly trained and organized Macedonian army, they developed new 
military tactics using armoured cavalry, the `cataphracti'. Some 
authors think that the Massagetae owed their conquests solely to the 
use of this armoured cavalry against weaker adversaries (Sulimirski 
1970: 81)."

This cataphracti lead to a great expansion of their culture and quite 
possibly the mechanism behind their early exploration into Europe.  
Sulmirski wrote, "In the fourth and third centuries BC, the 
Massagetae subdued nearly all the nomad tribes of Central Asian north 
of the Macedonian frontier, eastward to the Tien-Shan Mountains, and 
possibly many tribes of the Kazakhstan steppes; this led to a 
tremendous extension of their culture which to a great extent derived 
from that of Achaemenid Iran (Sulimirski 1970: 81)."  Therefore, it 
is possible that the Getae and Scythian mentioned by the classical 
writers were the Massagetae.  This is probably why G. Ekholm and A. 
Alfoldi, ironically, of the University of Uppsala (Sweden) and the 
University of Budapest, respectively, wrote, "This has been 
demonstrated by linguistic evidence: even the name of the Getae is 
the abbreviated form of a Scythian title, which appears to have 
originally designated an upper class among the Scythians (Ekholm and 
Alfoldi 1954: 86-87)."  
It is also important to note that Massagetae were in existence during 
Herodotus's times and he claims they are like the Scythians and for 
this reason classified with the Eastern Scythians.    
Further, what can explain the groups such as the Tyrigetae of Getae 
of the Dniester River, the Euergetae or "Good" Getae, the Massa-Getae 
or "Great Getae", the Frozen Getae, etc spread out from the Baltic 
and the Balkans to Central Asia and Afghanistan?
Also, as mentioned before, classical writers such as Dexippos, 
Orosios, Josephus, Cassidorus, Isidore of Seville and Jordanes 
mention that the Goths were "Scythian" or "Getae" were they all wrong?
Even in Scandinavia, Procopius seems to treat the Gauts, as Scythians 
with mentioning their veneration of Ares.  Cassidorus even mentions a 
Scandinavian people called Gautigoths?  Further, Wolfram writes, "The 
Greek geographer mentions the Gutae, Goutai, as one of the seven 
peoples inhabiting the island of Scandi-Scandinavia (Wolfram 1988: 
37)."
In The Geats of Beowulf, a Scandinavian chronicler wrote the 
following about the Scythian origin of Scandinavians:


[C]ertain tribes
., when they had migrated from Scythia into this 
region, called it Scythia, as if it were worthy of the name of their 
first country [and] Moreover, those tribes
. for some reason
. were 
called `Getae'
. [and] were also called `Massagetae' after they 
entered this region. Then
. when the name had been changed, those who 
were formerly called `Getae'
 [were]
afterwards
. [called]
. `Gothi'
 
(Leake 1967: 93-94).
  
Though, you dislike my citing old work, in the 1687 work Zalmoxis - 
First Legislator of the Getae, by Lundius, written at the Upsala 
Academy of Sciences, the Scythian or Getic origin of the Goth and the 
Swedes is attested:


[T]he Getae, who are the same with Goths and Scythians
.The ones in 
Thrace were called Getae, later in Procopius's time were called Goths 
and in older times they were called Scythians
. It is worthy 
retaining that unique truth, namely the Getae and the Goths were one 
and the same people and they were also called with the name of 
Scythians
. Therefore, they are called Getae, Gothones, Gothini, 
Getar, Gettar, Jettar, Jottar, Gautar, Gotar
. the Masagets are 
Scythian too
. Through the art of wielding the bow and arrows our 
ancestors have stood out from other peoples, as our national history 
confirms it to us
 Joannes Messenius recounts more ample the 
Scandinavian Goths: `The ancient ones called those nations, the 
descendents of which have populated the most part of Europe and Asia, 
rather Getae than Goths.' (Lundius 1687: 8, 9, 15, 21, 28).

Here is it interesting to note that the he called the Massagetae, 
Masa – Gets.  He also noted that the Goths, Getae, and Scythian were 
well known archers.

James Tod writes:

Now the Su, Yuchi, or Yuti, are Getes according to De Guignes.  Marco 
Polo calls Cashgar where he was
. the birthplace of the Swedes.  De 
La Croix adds, that in 1691 Sparvenfeldt, the Swedish ambassador at 
Paris, told him he has read in Swedish chronicles that Cashgar was 
their country.  In Mawaru-I-Nahr (Transoxiana) they (Huns) mixed with 
the Su, Yuti or Getes, who were particularly powerful and extended 
into Europe (Tod 1829: 72-73, 129 (vI)).

Therefore, in short it may be possible the people deemed as 
Scythians, a geographical term, were mostly of an ethnic group called 
Getae, whose original homeland was in Western Turkistan on the banks 
of the Amu and Syr Darya Rivers. 

The conclusion of Leake's The Getae of Beowulf, strikes as perhaps 
the conclusion of the accomplishments of the western Getae, and the 
reason why Beowulf chose to discuss the Getae or Getes:

There is, I think, another reason besides an artistic one why the 
author chose to write about the Getes rather than the Jutes or Gauts 
or any specific and historical Germanic tribe.  The Getes were looked 
upon as the founding nation of all Germanic people (Leake 1967: 133).

Ekholm, G. and Aldolfi, A. "The Peoples of Northern Europe: The Getae 
and Dacians." In The Cambridge Ancient History. Edited by S.A. Cook, 
F.E. Adcock, M.P. Charlesworth, Vol XI. London. Cambridge University 
Press: 1954.

Sulimirski, T. The Sarmatians. New York. Frederick A. Prager 
Publishers: 1970.

Leake, J.A. The Geats of Beowulf. Madison, Milwaukee, and London.  
University of Wisconsin Press:  1967.

Tod, J. Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan. Vol. 1. Delhi. Motilal 
Banarsidass: 1971, First Published in 1829.

Carolus, Lundius. Zamolxis - First Legislator of the Getae. Upsala, 
Excudit Henricus Keyser S.R.M. et Academy Typography: AD 1687. 
Translated by Maria Crisan, 2002. Also see, 
http://www.dacia.org/lundius/clundius-eng.pdf

Wolfram, H.  History of the Goths. Berkeley. University of California 
Press: 1988.

Best Wishes,




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