[gothic-l] Re: Vladimir (bojar)

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "?????? ????????" <vegorov at i...>
wrote:
> *<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
com:office:office" />
>
>
>
> Hi, Francisc!
>
>
>
> The point is just that I have found
> neither attestations nor the exact meaning
> of the conjectural Turkic (Old Bulgarian)
> word *[bojl] or *[bol']. Namely this fact
> prompted me to look for another alternative.
> My conjecture "bo jarl" conforms to
> a general rule. Most of terms of the feudal
> hierarchy in early medieval Russia were
> borrowed from Germanic rather than Turkic.
>
> Several examples are:
>
>     1) odal > [udel] "principality";
>
>     2) kuning > Old Slavic *[k(u)ne(n)g]
>         (with weak unaccented vowel and
>         nasal e) > Old Russian [kn'ag] (cf.
>         [kn'agin'a] "princess") > [kn'az']
>         (with the palatalized interchange
>         of consonants) "prince";



Hi Vladimir,

like Gazariah, I would be concerned about the etymology of Udel from
Odal. Udel really means 'Part-Principality)', denoting the share
which each son got. As such, like Gazariah pointed out it may be
better detrived from terms for 'sharing', i.e. 'delith' etc.

Knag/Knag maybe derived from Germanic 'Kunigaz' or similar, but it
seems doubtfull that this term was borrowed from the Goths. As far as
I know the Goths did not really use the term 'kunig/kuning'. Also,
the Finnish word for king was borrowed at a very early stage from
common Germanic (kuningaz), and it seems possible that the Slavs also
borrowed the word from common Germanic rather than Gothic.

cheers
Dirk



>
>     3) umbott(man) > [e(n)bot-nik] (with
>         nasal e and a Slavic professional
>         suffix) > [jabetnik] "overseer,
>         tax collector";
>
>     4) gird(man)/grid(man) > [griden']
>         "retinuer".
>
>
>
> In this line, the conjecture "bo iarl" does
> not look alien, does it?
>
>
>
> The etymology from [boj] is more than
> dubious. Not to mention that it is
> not correct grammatically, the word [boj]
> itself for "battle" was not in use those
> times. I seem the words [bran'] of [secha]
> would be more relevant for etymologizing.
>
>
>
> Vladimir
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor at y...]
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 7:46 PM
> To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Vladimir (bojar)
>
>
> Hi!
>
> This is already off-topic, but I want to add some words about the
> word bojarin:
> In the etymological dictionaries accessible for me, the
explanations
> are contradictory:
> The Hungarian etymological dictionary states that the word, which
in
> Hungarian is "boj?r" and means "Russian or Romanian land owner", is
> of Slavic origin. There are given examples in several Slavic
> languages (including Russian), and states that the source is from
Old
> Bulgarian (bol'ar), where it comes probably from Turkic-Bulgar.
> In Romanian there is the word "boier" which means "Romanian feudal
> land owner" and is indeed most probably of Old Bulgarian origin,
like
> the great majority of Romanian words of Slavic origin.
> On the other hand, Webster's (under the entry "boyar" = "member of
> the privileged aristocracy in czarist Russia; member of the
> privileged aristocracy in Romania") gives as etymology the Russian
> boyarin, pl. boyare "grandee" < boj "battle".
> I have once read in a Hungarian dictionary found in a library that
> one of the etymologies proposed for the word "magyar" (the own
> designation of Hungarians) would be a Turkic "bayar" = "nobleman",
> although the most accepted version is the Finno-Ugric origin of
this
> word. What is not clear for me is if there is indeed attested a
> word "bayar" in some Turkic language or is only presumed (based
> eventually on "bojar").
>
> Francisc
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada).
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351
http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/