[gothic-l] Re: Visigoths not "Booted Out"

[James Young]

Francisc et al.,

Before the House of Windsor was called "Windsor", it had a much longer German sounding name which included some reference to Goths. On a lark one day I tried to find its source and tracked it to the Duke of Thuringia. That was the basis of my 2nd "kicked out" reference. Apparently, after the conversion of the Franks which involved an alliance with the Burgundians. Theodoric who had taken over the regency of Visigothic Spain renewed the conflict with the Franks. He negotiated as far north as Thuringia. In an attempt to balance their growing power. I suspect the Arian mission was part of this diplomacy.

Theodoric's father, Thiudimr had fought an extensive campaign against the Suavii in the Alps and possibly had association with the Baiovari as well. He certainly knew of them.

In the days before the huns, I thought that the Visigoths were a warrior elite representing a very small part of a mixed population (2%?), but that their system of governance, with its reliance on local judges, was more functional than other systems. I thought that was the basis of the ~250 CE confederation that they established first over the Marcomanni, the Bastarnae, the Gepids, and the Sueves (at least those along the  Lower Danube) and later over the non-German Carpi, Costobocci, Dacians and Getans (that they inherited from Rome in Dacia).

The Ostrogoths, I thought, were more populous and that their dominance over the other ethnic groups in their vicinity was more based upon their own warrior/herdsmen.

After the Huns and Adrianople, the Visigoths were on again/off again Foederati (unless they happened to be sacking Greece or Rome), and the Ostrogoths were Hunnic heavy cavalry until Atilla died, when they went to Italy and did what they wanted to do when they were with the Huns. And then came Theodoric.

The Visigoth confederation in Spain and Southern France, and simililar systems of the much larger Franks became the basis of feudalism. That time, however, while the ruling Visigoths were Arians and their subjects were Catholics was, I think, the perfect balance. Though Theodoric unified the Goths, brought peace to Italy, and was a sophisticated ruler, his effect was centralizing and took away from the independence of the Visigothic confederate members. They had been able to field an army big enough to beat Attila (with his Ostrogothic allies) yet their subjects were ruled by there own separate laws. Just enough civil conflict to keep the swords from rusting.

Francisc Czobor <fericzobor at yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Dirk,

I wrote that probably some of them went to Bavaria. The Gothic
influence in Bavarian is attributed mainly to an alleged Gothic-Arian
mission to Bavaria, which would explain loanwords connected more or
less to religion (including some names of the days of the week). But
there are also words of Gothic origin that have nothing to do with
religion (for instance, Pfait "shirt" or Maut "customs"), that would
suggest that the Ostrogothic presence in Bavaria was not limited to
that Arian mission. I agree with you that the majority of the
Ostrogoths probably remained in Italy and were subsequently
assimilated by other Germanic peoples settled in Northern Italy (like
the Langobards) and finally romanized.

Francisc


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> ...
> Hi Francisc,
>
> this is an interesting theory about Goths fleeing to Bavaria, and
it
> has been advocated for a long time. The evidence is, however, at
best
> tentative I think. Recent excavations at the Hemmaberg did reveal
an
> Arian Gothic church and a Gothic cemetary which attests the
presence
> of Goths in Old Bavaria. Also, we know of a Herulian leader who
later
> turned up in the Alps, I think in the Tyrole area if I remember
> correctly. However, I doubt that this was a large scale movement.
At
> best a few individuals may have made their way across the Alps I
> think while most would have been content to stay in the country
were
> they were born - Italy.
>
> The prevalence of Ostrogothic themes in Old High German and Middle
> German poetry and ballads is often attributed to the fact that the
> Bavarian dukes were closely related to the Langobardic rulers of
> Italy. Infact, the most sucessful Langobardic royal house in Italy
is
> often called the 'Bavarian Dynasty' and we know that Langobards
also
> settled in Bavaria (near Augsburg for example). The Langobards of
> Italy will have absorbed many of the remaining Goths, including
their
> history and tales, which were thus passed on to the Bavarians, as
the
> Langobards were gradually shifting to speaking Romanic in the
course
> of the 7th century. Hence, I that the transmission of the Gothic
> tales and tradition to the Old High German literature may have been
> indirect through the Langobardic-Bavarian connection.
>
> Cheers
> Dirk



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