[gothic-l] Re: *Awgustus (Agustau)

Tue Jul 27 16:16:14 UTC 2004

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard" <manielombard at c...> 
wrote:
> Háils Llama Nom
> 
> 
> 
> I took *Awgustus for August, because of the comment on p. 361 of 
the
> "Grammar of the Gothic Language" by Joseph Wright:
> 
> 
> 
> "Agustáu (Luke ii. 1) is probably a mistake for Awgustáu."

> þagk faírháita þus
> 
> Manie

Hails Manie,

Jah awiliudo thus in this!  Thanks, I'd overlooked that.  Yes, I 
guess that makes sense.  And it ties in with the -aw- in kawtsjo.  
Always supposing the 'mistake' isn't pointing to some colloquial or 
Gothicised pronunciation...  I'll have to look up the history of 
this sound combination in Latin.  Incidentally, there's an 
interesting remark on the pronunciation of _w_ in Braune & 
Helm: "Gotische Grammatik" 39.1, and a suggestion that the _w_ in 
Pawlus was a voiced spirant, as upsilon had become in Greek in this 
position.  There is even reference here to the idea that this Gothic 
pronunciation is what gave rise to Spanish Pablo!

Presumably in kawtsjo though (and *Awgustus) the -aw- would have 
sounded like -au-, whatever that sounded like...  I pronounce it as 
a diphthong, but some people think it might have been a long open o.

Llama Nom

> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "llama_nom" <penterakt at f...>
> To: <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 7:03 PM
> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: h¬ãils - j & i & the Roman months
> 
> 
> 
> Hails Manie & Francisc,
> 
> Some more thoughts regarding the rendering of the Roman months in
> Gothic:
> 
> 
> INITIAL SEMIVOWLES.  Biblical names beginning I- (Iesus, Iohannes,
> etc.) almost always represent the consonantal J by I, as in Greek
> spelling, probably a written convention with no bearing on the
> pronunciation in Gothic.  There are a small handful of names that 
do
> use J for Greek I, e.g. Jannis < Iannes.  The name of the mother of
> God is invariably Maria, while the woman healed of devils is Marja
> Magdalene.  Naturalised loanwords generally have j: Makidonja,
> Aikklesjo (Braune & Helm: Gotische Grammatik, 1956, ¡×43 A.2), and
> perhaps this included the month names.  Another clue to the 
treatment
> the months might lie in the name of the Emperor Augustus, recorded 
in
> Gothic as Agustus (L 2,1).
> 
> MEDIAL SEMIVOWELS.  In respect of Jan. & Feb., note also Gk Eddoua 
>
> Got. Aiddua (MnE Jedaiah); Gk Phanoueel > Got. Fanuel.  From this 
it
> seems most likely that Latin -u- > Got. -u- in Jan. & Feb., rather
> than -w-.  In respect of May, note Gk Achaia > Got. Akaja, Axaia +
> dat. Akaijai; and the corresponding adjective, gen.pl. Akaje.
> 
> AFFRICATION.  The Latin combination -tio- appears affricated in the
> Gothic borrowing kawtsjo (6th century deed), reflecting innovations
> in Latin pronunciation, but if Martius had been borrowed early 
enough
> it would have escaped this change.  The four other Latin loans with
> relevant combinations all escape affrication/assimilation in 
Gothic:
> faskja, laiktjo, unkja, plapja - presumed error for *platja 
(Braune &
> Helm, 1956, ¡×43 A.1).  Also in favour of a non-affricated form in
> Gothic might be the German dialect variants Marte, etc. - see 
below -
> and at some time the Latin name was borrowed unaffricated into 
Greek
> as Martios, but I don't know when.  As well as date (Vulgar Latin 
tj
> > tsj probably in the 3rd c., see Elcock: The Romance Languages,
> 1960, p. 53), the form of the Gothic word might depend on whether
> these names were literate or popular borrowings, since Latin
> orthography didn't necessarily keep pace with changes in the spoken
> language, and even which part of the Roman empire they were derived
> from: e.g. in the West, with regional exceptions, kj > tsj, but in
> the East, again with localised exceptions in the Balkans, kj > tsh
> (Elcock, 1960, p. 54).  Since the Gothic calendar, as attested, 
shows
> the influence of Balkan Christianity in its feast days, an earlier
> borrowing lends weight to the likelihood of a nonaffricated 
*Martius.
> 
> VOWEL LENGTH.  The Gothic names might sometimes preserve the length
> distinctions of the Latin vowels.  This seems to have been the case
> for some Latin/Celtic place names borrowed via Gothic into 
Slavonic:
> Got. *Dona:wi > Pol., etc. Dunaj; Got. *Ta:nu- > Pol. Tanew
> (Czarnecki: Gotisches im Wortschatz des Polnischen).  I'm not sure 
of
> the ultimate etymology of this last one, but the long a: in both
> these words is not a native phonetic development.  Preservation of
> vowel length would be more likely for earlier borrowings, or 
literate
> borrowings, as later spoken Latin ceased to distinguish vowel
> quantity, as distinct from stress, although in some instances the
> difference survived as a qualitative one, e.g. long u: > u, but 
short
> u > open o.  In most Romance dialects, the development of long and
> short a was identical (Elcock, 1960, p. 43).
> 
> It's likely though that the penultimate vowel of -areis was long as
> in OHG -©¡re, since this suffix was borrowed early.  Though we 
can't
> say whether Januarius & Frbruarius were assimilated to this 
familiar
> suffix, or retained their Latin termination.
> 
> 
> Given all that: here's my best guesses at the moment:
> 
> Ia:nua:rius > *Januareis, (or *Ianuarius, *Janwareis, etc.)
> Februa:rius > *Faibruareis, (or *Faibruarius)
> Martius > *Martius (or *Martsius, but see above)
> Apri:lis > *Apreilis
> Maius > *Majus
> Iu:nius > *Junius
> Iu:lius > *Julius
> Augustus > Agustus (Attested as the Emperor's name)
> September > *Saiptaimbair
> Octo:ber > *Auktobair
> November > Naubaimbair (The one that's attested)
> December > *Daikaimbair
> 
> 
> Llama Nom
> 
> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" 
<fericzobor at y...>
> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Manie Lombard"
> <manielombard at c...>
> > wrote:
> > > H¬ãils Francis
> > >
> > > Would you reconstruct January, June and July with "j" or "i"?
> > >
> > > Manie
> > >
> >
> > Rather with "j", since Latin semivocalic "i" is rendered by 
Wulfila
> > usually through "j", as in Jesus, jota, Justus, ans sometimes 
also
> > Greek words where initial "i" stands before a vowel have
> alternative
> > spelling with "j": Iauraupaulis ~ Jairupulis, Iaurdanus ~
> Jaurdanus,
> > Iudas ~ Judas, Iudaius ~ Judaius.
> > The spelling with "j" is closer to Gothic (and Germanic) 
phonology.
> >
> > Francisc
> 
> 
> 
> 
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