[gothic-l] Re: Spanish Goths

[F.E.J.D. IV]

Hello Denis,
I was so surprised when you brought up the Cagots. They are rarely
ever mentioned. I am curious to know how you ever heard of them? -- 

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard at y...>
wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm interested in finding out more in the "agotes" (spanish name) or
>"cagots" (french >name) who lived in the basque country up until the
>19th century.

I have some information that may be of help but I think in the end,
the Cagots will still be an enigma.
You might already know that the name Agote or Cagot is most likely
derived from "Canis Gothi" (Dogs of the Goths), (see Dictionaire
Quillet 1932 ed). Some have speculated that they were to the Arian
Goths what "Dominicani" the "Dogs of God" were to the Catholic Church.
Most articles I have read seem to agree that Agotes or Cagots were a
group of Arian Visigoths that refused to convert to Catholicism under
the orders of Reccared and moved to the mountains in order to defend
and protect their sect and escape retribution. These Cagot enclaves or
"Cagoterie" existed in Guipuzcoa, Navarre and the region of Jaca. I
encourage you to see some photos of Jaca should you not be familiar
with its environs. It is very remote and makes an excellent hideaway
since the surrounding countryside is very rough and tumble Pyreneean
highland somewhat geographically reminiscent of Switzerland. In France
Cagots lived around the villages of Gascogne, Bearn and Comminges but
a small group may have made it as far as Brittany. In Spain they were
subjected to extreme segregation by town and church alike. 
There is an (small) out of the way museum in Navarre (don't remember
the town) that has some good information on this group and the area
where they resided. It can be found at:
http://www.euskalnet.net/tik/museo.htm
There is also an excellent study with photos (but it is in Castilian),
titled ("Documentos Sobre Agotes y Grupos Afines en Navarra" by
Florencio Idoate, 1973). In French there is "Histoire des Cagots, Race
Maudite", Osmin Ricau, 1969) I recommend the former over the latter.
These books are available at the aforementioned museum but I also
found them at the library in Princeton and Penn. 
The fact that this group existed is well documented. The first book
shows a photo of a late 15th century papal bull rescinding the imposed
privations, it is dated thirteenth of May, fifteen hundred and
fifteen. (I will try to post the photo in my web page in the not too
distant future). The bull orders that they be well treated and calls
for them to be given the same privileges as other men. The church then
charges Don Juan de Santa Maria of Pamplona to execute the letter of
the bull, though it seems that Santa Maria shirked his charge since
documents later show that the Cagots had applied to the Cortes of
Navarre for relief where they were (nonetheless) opposed on a variety
of grounds allowing some of the privations to continue to as late as
the 19th century.
The latter privations are too numerous to mention but entailed such
things as the wearing of distinctive costume. In some villages it
consisted of a badge of a red colored duck's foot worn on the right
sleeve, in other villages the same badge was worn over the left
shoulder or on the front of their hats. They could only practice as
carpenters, tilers and slaters, and seem to have been primarily
employed in church construction. It is said that the roster of workers
of the abbey Church of Saint Savin and other medieval monuments in the
area (especially those on the way to Compostela are replete with the
names of Cagots. It is also documented that they were not allowed to
go near regular townsfolk and could only enter a village on certain
days and at certain hours. They had their own entrance in church and
could not use the communal holy water or baptismal fonts and were not
allowed to come close to the priest and ciborium but rather received
the communion host on the end of a long pole.

> Some scholars pretend they are the Wisigoths running away from the
Moor invasion of >Spain.
 
It is hard to separate fact from fiction as concerns the Cagots. Some
have thought that they were a colony of lepers and others have
speculated that they were escaped Cathars. Alas, there is countless
speculation as concerns their origin and the imposed privations.
 
One item of note is that in 1625 Arnault De Oihenart in the "Gran
Enciclopedia Vascaren berrargitalpena" affirms that they were
descendants of Arrian Goths that did not convert. However, I am not
familiar with the veracity of the latter. 

The whole affair with the Cagots seems to have been hatched in
Hollywood does it not?. But then one asks the question why would an
entire populace deprive a group in such a way and for so long unless
it was some sort of religious argument or difference? –

>Those who found refuge in the rest of the Northern mountain range
were assimilated >into the population, but it seems that the basque
somehow ostracized them. They were >originally forbidden from living
in the villages, could only settle in the woods and could >only work
in wood related jobs. They were christian (aryans) but had a separate
(small) >door and benches in church.They were forbidden to marry with
catholics and carried >basque-sounding specific surnames (on the
french side "Chrestiaa" is one).
>This "apartheid" lasted into the 19th century when they were finally
allowed to >integrate with the rest of the community.

It appears that there were some groups in the province of Asturias as
well and they were also persecuted. One of the books I mentioned,
points out that in Luz-Saint-Sauveur there were descendents of Cagots
families that could still be identified as late as 1967, however, it
seems that after the mid-19th Century most made a good effort to hide
their identity seemingly with rather good success.

>Now, my question is, these people having stayed separate from the
rest of the >population for quite a long time, wouldn't specific
"germanic" genetic markers be >present in their descendants' genes ? 

I hope I understand your question correctly
 Simply stated (once in
your genes always in your genes). Any marker, suggesting admixture
from a different well-established geographical group will show up in
the genes of the offspring and their descendants as long as those
lineages are viable. It does not matter if that group has commingled
with other groups, the genes will always show the record of their
descent. 
Also it may help to point out that it is rather difficult to
understand at first but try to keep in mind that there is no such
thing as a "Germanic marker". Some molecular biologists et al may at
times blurt-out something to that effect but only for the sake of
brevity. The markers by which populations are identified tell nothing
about culture, and/or language, they simply refer to a certain
mutation passed on to the breeding population living in a certain
((geographical area)) during a period of time (a long length of time).
Thus, the mutation is passed on through breeding to most of the
population. One may contrast these markers against other different
mutations passed within other breeding populations in other
geographical areas for long periods of time. The "refugiums" (where
people took refuge from the cold and ice) during the last ice age in
Europe did some of the work. These refugiums were isolated
geographical areas where a great many people lived very closely. They
allowed the people living in each refugium (which were separated by a
distance of about over one thousand miles each) and by a great many
barriers, to intermingle and to become somewhat genetically
homogenous. Thus, the non-coding areas of the "Y" chromosome or of the
Mitochondrial DNA show the homogeneity that occurred during the time
we were together in our particular refugium. However, please keep in
mind that the latter mutations have nothing to do with appearance
(phenotype) since the mutations studied are in the non-coding region
of the genomes. As I stated, there were several Refugiums, one of them
was in Spain. Those living there followed the retreat of the glaciers
during the end of the last ice age and colonised the British Isles and
the Atlantic facing areas of Europe as far north as Norway, and
eastward into central Europe, thus it is termed the AMH or Atlantic
Modal Haplogroup (R1b). Another refugium in the Balkans caused
homogeneity in (that) geographical area and much like those in the
Iberian refugium migrated northward from their refugium following the
game kept corralled from the north by retreating ice. The later two
groups interbred where the R1b Haplogroup met the I Haplogroup of
Central and Northern Europe. One important item to your question is
that individuals of the R1b and I Haplogroups interbred in the
relative geographical area of Central and Northern Europe at varying
percentages with the I Hpalogroup attaining a higher degree of
saturation the farther it is from the Atlantic coast so that the
geographical population comprising the Goths could to some degree have
had individuals of the I as well as other Haplogroups including the
R1b, the latter being identical to the Haplogroup found in Spain, (its
refugium), there, at very high concentrations. Therefore, one cannot
rely on just a few individuals. A serious study must look for
variation in extant and deceased populations throughout the entire
geographical area that may have originally contributed individuals to
the population of the Goths as well as to those areas where the Goths
may have made significant genetic contributions. Then all samples must
be contrasted and studied. Furthermore, one must look beyond the
established Haplogroup markers to other possible markers that may
allow a good contrast of the population that comprised the area of the
Goth homeland from other nearby populations and further, to those
populations in which the Goths made genetic contributions. Only after
broad sampling takes place will the markers from as you say "people
having stayed separate from the rest of the population for quite a
long time" make significant sense.
 What I wrote is intentionally very diluted and simplistic. I hope it
may have touched on some salient points. It was very difficult for
most students in my class to arrive at some understanding of
ethnicity, but things get even more complicated when we insert such
appellations as "Germanic marker" into the fray. The appellation
Germanic is bandied about quite carelessly and at times even I have
shared the blame. But for most individuals the whole idea needs some
re thinking. 

>Has this ever been studied ? 

There have been several physicians that studied the Cagots. Some very
early studies actually bled a group of Cagots in order to see whether
they had different "humors" and salts. Others observed that there was
no leprosy or other disease in the group. One observation in the 19th
Century noted that the shape of the Cagot's ears were different,
(almost round). And that their bodily temperatures were on average
higher than the normal mean. The latter items would have
anthropological significance but the observations would have to be
made once again under laboratory conditions.
 As concerns molecular investigations, there has never been a study
specifically geared to the question of the Cagots. Nonetheless a paper
on the Genetic diversity in the Iberian Peninsula may have stumbled
unto some unusual markers that partition a segment of the population
in Alava and Vizcaya, the areas where Cagots lived. However, whether
it has something to do with the Cagots is totally uncertain.

>And last, what's their name in english ?

I think I touched on this earlier in this post.
Cagot is, according to (Dictionaire Quillet 1932 ed.), derived from
Canis Gothi, meaning Dogs of the Goths.

Cheers,
F.E.J.D.




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