[gothic-l] Re: Cagots (how pure were the Goths?)

[F.E.J.D. IV]

Denis you've made some very excellent points. 
You picked up on the erroneous notion of "purity" quite well, and your
point was quite correct. The notion of "purity" as concerns people
groups is an erroneous romantic idea, which springs eternal in every
generation. We get caught up in that notion without even knowing it
and remain uncritical of it because it seems so appealing or natural.
What struck me is that this incident certainly begs the question, what
are OUR individual notions about what "IS" Germanic and/or what we
mean by "pure" in such contexts? --- Usually, the term Germanic is
imbued with all kinds of romantic notions centered on an idealized
stereotypical model that is somehow descended from a perfectly
homogenous population and free of other ethnic admixture (pure). But
the problem is that the latter notion is a totally fictitious one. It
is a house of cards, mere propaganda and politicization, a way of
drumming-up a sense of superiority in spite of, and against all
scientific reason. One has to admit that much of the latter has been
shaped by certain scientifically discredited, romantical and political
notions of the last two centuries; yet, some people are still
convinced of it, or (as I think in this case) benignly and unknowingly
caught-up in the ideas. The fact many people are unknowingly caught-up
in the idea should spur us to confront the notion since it gives us an
erroneous concept about what Germanic is. --- One important thing to
remember is that there can be no singular objective narrow reference
of what a "Germanic" phenotype is. Instead, one must use broad
descriptions in order to encompass all phenotypes found in Germanic
language areas. To drive my point, all one need do is to look through
the pages of National Geographic from [September 1991 – where one can
find an article on Germany] and another about Sweden, [August 1993
(especially see pages 20 and 21)]. The maritime areas of the Baltic
Sea are by far the area with the greatest percentage of light colored
hair about (50%), and the maritime areas between Britain and Denmark
have the highest percentage of light colored eyes, (about 50%),
(Krantz, 1980).. The percentages for each decline the farther one
moves away from these areas. Even despite the fact that Germany
instituted serious breeding programs for these two traits during the
early-mid 20th Century, both traits are rarely found in 50% of
individuals (Krantz, 1980). Even in Eastern Sweden, the area closest
to the Baltic one will find quite a lot of variation. -- Thus, it is
folly to assume that there is a representative Germanic phenotype;
there are only general tendencies, certain areas may have a higher
percentage of a feature such as light hair or light eyes, but, (within
Europe) the same light eyes and hair will also be found outside of and
far away from the "German/ic" language areas. Thus, no set of
objective standards could ever be chosen to define such a thing as a
"Germanic" phenotype since it would never be totally representative of
all the people living in Germanic speaking areas and if one were to
devise one that would describe every one in the Germanic speaking area
it would also be able to describe Italians and Greeks and Sardinians.
Thus a description of a Germanic speaking population has to adequately
cover all the variation found in German speaking areas and that would
(as we have seen in National Geographic) necessarily have to include
brunets, a range in complexions, dark eyes etc. That is why it is
silly to insist on "idealized characteristics" or "ethnic purity" or
insist that Germanic-speaking people can be identified through certain
typology using craniometrical methods (91). The reason that I have had
such a difficult time answering Denis' questions is because there is
no "one" genetic marker that identifies a Goth or German or Spaniard.
Therefore one has to rely on contrasting a large number of samples
from many places in order to make reasonable predictions about the
different types of markers that are preponderant in such
geographically bound populations. 

Cheers,
F.E.J.D.


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Denis Glenard" <denisglenard at y...>
wrote:
> ... surprisingly enough we hear quite often of Goths with ethnically 
> mixed parentage. 
> 
> 
> Well, not really surprising to find mixed parentage amongst the
Goths. What ancient peoples could be said to be "pure" ?
> Wasn't a typical warrior habit that of snatching women from the
vanquished ?
> 
> However:
> 
> - Wasn't there a larger ethnic group dominating all others which had
some specific genetic markers ?
> 
> - after roughly 4 or 500 years in Spain, living in isolation,
inbreeding  (i.e. not mixing with Spanish locals), wouldn't a specific
trait (genetic marker) be found in all the "spanish Goths" that could
also be found in other (older) Gothic tribes ?
> 
> - assuming the two above are true, the cagots having by and large
been also isolated and inbred up until late 19th century, wouldn't
they share some of the older "goth" genetic traits IF indeed they were
runaway Goths ?
> 
> As you can see, I use the name Goth in order to have a denomination
for that people, not to infer any kind of unity or purity.
> I'm not a scientist and not especially fond of arguing for arguing's
sake, but I am very interested in this particular aspect of history
and if some scientific light could be shed on this mistery it would
greatly help modern day Cagot descendants understand, cope and be
proud of their forebears.
> 
> Hope you all will excuse my ignorance and my questions.
> 
> Best regards to all,
> 
> Denis Glenard
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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