[gothic-l] Re: fairhwus + Greutingi + Gothic loans in Polish

Thu Jun 10 14:00:50 UTC 2004

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt at f...> wrote:
> 
> Hi all!
> 
> And the OE cognate of FAIRHWUS is FEORH 'life'.  Looking up 
> _fairguni_ just now on Google, I came across this article on the 
> Gothic contribution to Polish:
> 
> www.fh.ug.gda.pl/images/Czarnecki.pdf
> 
> In particular I noticed the following comment on a Polish place 
name 
> sometimes said to derive from the tribal name recorded in Latin as 
> GREUTINGI.  Czarnecki says here that the place name is of Slavonic 
> rather than East Germanic origin - which means it can't be used as 
> evidence that this tribe was an old grouping going back to Poland.
> 
> 10.1.1.7. Grudzi¹dz – eine Ortschaft Solch eine Form geht nicht auf 
> die Bezeichnung eines ostgerm. (got.) Stammes *Ghraudingos (> 
ostgot. 
> Grutungi) zurück, sondern, wie die ältere Form Grudzieniec zeigt, 
ist 
> sie slawischer Herkunft. Vgl. Kiparsky (1934: 39, 166), Stender-
> Petersen (1927: 520)
> 
> 
> Llama Nom
> 

Hi Llama Nom,

I think most of the Polish or former East/West Prussian placenames 
that were at one time believed to be East Germanic/Gothic have 
nowadays been rejected as such. When most of Northern Poland was 
German (until 1945) historians were engaged in centuries of debates 
about ethnicities and the German historians were keen to interpret as 
many placenames as Gothic as they could to show that the land is 
ancient Germanic. Instead, the names in question are usually Old 
Prussian (i.e. West Baltic) or old Slavic. Considering that the Goths 
left the region from about 150AD it is close to impossible that any 
placenames of Gothic origin remained in existence there I think. 

The older German desire to identify Gothic placenames in East Prussia 
is mirrored by the Lithuanian attempt to link their history with the 
Goths. I remember one (hopeless) Lithunanian author who interpreted 
many Visigothic names as Lithuanian, in the process of which he 
seeminly delibrately misread coin inscriptions on Visigothic triens. 

H. Wolfram puts it nicely in his book, when he says that lists of 
supposedly Gothic placenames and words in Spain and Aquitaine usually 
grow and shrink according to the national disposition of the author. 
If I remember correctly, he said that there is practically no 
archaeolgical evidence of the Goths' stay in western Gaul yet, some 
people believe to detect all sorts of Gothic placenames, while others 
argue that none of them are Gothic. 

However, I believe that there might be Gothic loanwords in the 
extinct Old Prussian language, which are not fully studied yet. For 
example: 

Old Prussian  - English

Rijks        - lord (Gothic: Reiks)
Rugis        - rye (name of the Rugi tribe)
Russ         - horse (m.Germ.: Ross)
Brunja       - armour (Gothic: brunjo)

etc....

Cheers
Dirk  

Cheers
Dirk

> 
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" 
<fericzobor at y...> 
> wrote:
> > Hi, Dirk!
> > 
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> > > ... 
> > > Hi Francisc,
> > > 
> > > I am interested in the word  "fairhwus" for world. Can you 
think 
> of 
> > > an equivalent in another Germanic language. All the other words 
> are 
> > > more or less easily recognisable but "fairhwus" is not, at 
least 
> > not 
> > > for me. Could it be a loanword? Old high German 
has "mittingart" 
> > for 
> > > world and "aerdha" for lat. terra. Also, "hliftus" for thief 
does 
> > not 
> > > remind me of a Germanic equivalent.
> > > 
> > > Otherwise, old high German equivalents to your Gothic examples:
> > > 
> > > oHG - Gothic
> > > suno/sune/sun - sunus
> > > harto/hart - hartus
> > > hanto/hant - handus
> > > float - flodus
> > > anglih - aggwus
> > > agalizo (?) - aglus
> > > todh/dodh - dauthus
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > Dirk
> > 
> > the Gothic word fairhwus "Welt / world, terrestrial domain of 
life" 
> > (apud Köbler) is considered to be derived from the IE 
> *perqwus "oak" 
> > (cf. Lat. quercus "oak"), the meaning shift being "tree / oak" 
> > > "cosmical tree" (of the Germanic mythology) > "world". Its 
> > equivalents in other Germanic languages denote kinds of trees 
(for 
> > instance, German Föhre, English fir).
> > From the same IE root are derived also: Goth. 
fairguni "mountain", 
> > the Old Norse deity Fjörgunn and also words in other IE languages 
> > denoting thunder gods (Hittite Perkunas, Sanskrit Parjanas, 
Slavic 
> > Perun etc.).
> > OHG mittingart (= ON midgardr) has also its Gothic equivalent: 
> > midjungard.
> > OHG aerdha (Erde / earth) is in Gothic airtha.
> > 
> > The Gothic word hliftus "thief" has no equivalent (as far as I 
> know) 
> > in other Germanic languages. Together with the verb hlifan "to 
> steal" 
> > it comes from the IE root klep- "to steal", whence also Greek 
> > kleptein "to steal", klepte:s "thief" (> cleptomania!), Lat. 
> > clepere "to steal".
> > German Dieb / English thief have also a Gothic equivalent: 
thiubs / 
> > thiufs.
> > 
> > Francisc

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> 
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/wWMplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> 

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/