[gothic-l] Re: Scandinavian Inscriptions - East/North/West Germanic

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <penterakt at f...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson at y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> >   The 
> > > change z > R (palatal voiced alveolar) doesn't show up in runic 
> > spelling, so that might make it difficult to distinguish between 
> the 
> > ancestors of North and East Gmc dialects.
> > 
> > This is the classic dilemma of whether to write R or z. z always 
> > becomes R and R is always from z, at least in north germanic. 
What 
> > should we write? I just write z because its lower case. More then 
> > likely, z - R cannot be dated. However, R could mutate preceeding 
> > vowels, some of which are shown in inscriptions. There is 
evidence 
> > of this in Old Norse and Old English as well. 
> > 
> >   And when did z > r in 
> > > West Germanic?
> > 
> > 400+ for sure, but how much later I'm not sure. We could look it 
> up. 
> 
> I knew it caused mutation in ON, but hadn't heard of that effect in 
> OE.  Do you know any examples?  According to Campbell's 'Old 
English 
> Grammar', if I understand this right, the change happened AFTER the 
> fronting of a > æ, which apparently occured independently in 
Friesian 
> and English.  Two examples he gives (which don't seem to have 
> mutation) are: ærn 'house' < *rænn < *razn (cf. Goth. razn), and 
hærn 
> < *hrænn < *hrazn 'wave'.  With metathesis in both cases.
> 
> 
> > 
> > > Something I've always wondered is, how much evidence actually 
> > exists for the traditional list of the "East Germanic" tribes: 
> > Vandals, Sueves, Gepids, Herulians, Skirians, Rugians, 
Burgundians, 
> > etc.  Are there specific Gothic-like features discernable in 
names, 
> > loan words, legal terms, or whatever - or is this list made 
largely 
> > on the basis of assumed geagraphical origin/habitation?
> 
> > 
> > This is outside of my sphere ;) However, the Rugians would appear 
> to 
> > be from Rogaland in Norway. Bornholm is also an island off the 
> south 
> > of Sweden. It's called borgundarhólmr in Old Norse. While this 
> alone 
> > does not prove anything, the names look very suspicious. How many 
> of 
> > the limited germanic groups used these names for themselves?
> > 
> 
> Yes, Borgundarhólmr:Burgundians like Gotland:Goths, and Vendel
(Sweden)
> +Vendsyssel(Jutland):Vandals.  The names match etymologically, but 
> the tribes first appear in history in the region of modern day 
> Poland.  



In fact, a Vandalic origin from Vendsyssel has been practically 
disproven by the work of various Polish archaeologists. I can provide 
the reference if desired (also the error seems to live on for ever). 
Also, the link Burgundarholm and Burgundiones is apparendly 
misleading. At least according to the Reallexikon der Germanischen 
Altertumskunde article on Bornholm. The name of the island and the 
name of the people both are believed to derive from a word meaning  
tall or high-rising, but in line with the archaeological evidence the 
material culture of the earliest attested settlement regions of the 
Burgundiones at the Oder, East Brandenburg and Nieder Lausitz was 
certainly not derived from Bornholm. 

For Rogaland and the Rugians, Hachmann pointed out that the link is 
tentative and bordering on the abstruse. Hachmann shows that Rogaland 
was itself thinly populated and subject to colonisation at the 
relevant time in history and can therefore hardly be considered the 
origin of migrating Rugians. 

Cheers
Dirk  



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