[gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'

Thu May 13 10:47:40 UTC 2004

Hailai sijuth!

And another alternative: nauths ist, literally "there is a need",
works the same way as: thaurfts ist (with thaurfts here being the
noun).  With each, the thing needed is genitive.  As a verb, thaurban
= "need", while skulan = "must, shall", with implications of
obligation, but also used to make a compound future tense, where the
simple present might not be specific enough.  Hey is everyone else
doing what I'm doing and typing some Gothic phrase into Google to
bypass the "Wulfila Project down for repairs" screen?

Skuld- (apart from being the past tense of skulan) is used in two
ways, with different meanings: 1) as an adjective, agreeing with the
nominative subject, and 2) impersonally as a neuter adjective +dat.

"PASSIVE" skulds ist +inf. "one must be"
"ACTIVE" skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "one must" or "one is allowed to" or
more literally "it is permissible [for one] to"
ni skuld ist (+dat.) +inf. "it is not permissible [for one] to"

"Passive" and "active" might be slightly confusing labels, in the
context, but the examples should make it clear.  For the former, see
L 9,44 skulds ist...atgiban "MUST BE handed over"; and for the latter
Mk 10,2 skuldu sijai mann qen afsatjan? "is a man ALLOWED TO divorce
his wife?" and 1Cor 6,15 skuld auk ist thata riurjo gahamon
unriurein "for that which is perishable MUST clothe itself with the
imperishable".

(This works even in 2 Cor 5,10, if you remember that ataugjan 'show'
has, when used passively, the special sense of "appear" as well
as "show oneself"--allai weis ataugjan skuldai sijum "we must all
appear".)

So with our hypothetical example: skulum galeithan "we should leave",
but: skuld ist unsis galeithan "we are allowed to leave", or to
reverse it: skuldai sijum bileithan "we must be left", and in the
past: skuldai wesum bileithan [fram im] "we should have been left [by
them]".  Or to deny it: ni skuld ist unsis galeithan "we aren't
allowed to go", or if optional, ni thaurbum galeithan "we don't need
to go".  To query: skuldu ist unsis galeithan? "are we allowed to
go?"; niu skuld ist? "aren't we allowed?"; skulumu galeithan "do we
have to go?"; or: ibai skulum galeithan "do we really have to go?"
Or if we just don't give a damn: ni waiht wulthrais ist unsis hwathar
galeithaima thau ni galeithaima "it's of no importance to us whether
we go or not!"

Llama Nom

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ashley overs"
<ashlovers_12344 at h...> wrote:
> thanks it realy helps me.
>
>
> >From: matthew carver <me at m...>
> >Reply-To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
> >To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic equivalent for English 'must'
> >Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 11:30:17 -0700
> >
> >hails!
> >
> >also there i believe is the possibility of
> >the construction "skulds ist (+DAT)"
> >meaning it is owing, lawful. Thaurfts
> >from tharf- has the meaning of necessity,
> >obligation. I thought these were impersonal
> >constructions requiring a dative. Where
> >does the phrase with thaurfts occur in the
> >gothic bible as a modal or auxiliary verb?
> >
> >-matthew
> >
> >On mandag, maj 10, 2004, at 09:11 , llama_nom wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>> How would one say that one 'must' do something in Gothic?
> > >>
> > >> I think _skulan_ is a good equivalent of _must_.
> > >>
> > >>> Eg how would one translate, 'We must go now'.
> > >>
> > >> Skulum nu gaggan.
> > >>
> > >>> Nearest I could work out was 'Thaurfts nu faran ist',
> > >>> literally 'Necessary now to-go it-is.'
> > >>
> > >> Not exactly. Thaurfts ist (you'll note that -s is the masculine
> > >> ending) means that somebody is meant to, in need to do
someting: sa
> > >> thaurfts ist gaggan = he is in need to go. You have to use the
> > > neuter
> > >> thaurft in order to convey impersonal meaning.
> > >>
> > >> Hope this helps
> > >>
> > >> Iosef Strawarila
> > >
> > >
> > > As you say, this is the simplest way:
> > >
> > > skulum nu gaggan - we should/must go/walk, let us go/walk
> > >
> > > Other possibilities:
> > >
> > > galeithan - go, depart
> > > usleithan - go out, depart, disappear
> > > afleithan - go, depart, leave (transitive or intransitive)
> > > afleithan aljath - go elsewhere, "be off"
> > > andqithan - say goodbye, take one's leave of, greet
> > > atgaggan - go/come (in a particular direction), approach, come
down
> > > faran - go (attested just once in Gothic, L 10,7 in phrase "go
from
> > > house to house")
> > > farjan - go by boat
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > And yes, "thaurft ist gaggan" seems reasonable for "it is
necessary
> > > to go".  The phrase isn't attested, as far as I know, but for
the
> > > same construction with the synonymous "naudithaufts" see 2Cor
9,5:
> > > naudithaurft nu man bidjan brothruns ei galeithaina du izwis - I
> > > thought it necessary to ask the brothers to go to you.
> > >
> > > The adjective "thaurfts" appears at 1Cor 12,22 (masc.pl.
thaurftai),
> > > meaning "necessary": thaurftai sind - they are necessary.
> > >
> > > In its weak masculine form it occurs at Mk 2,25 with a somewhat
> > > different meaning: thaurfta "needy", "in need".
> > >
> > > But "thaurfts" can also be a feminine i-stem noun, e.g. L 19,34:
> > > fraujin thaurfts this ist "the master needs it", lit. "there is
a
> > > necessity to the master of it" (it being a colt/foal).
> > >
> > > So too can naudithaurfts, cf. chapter 2 of the Skeireins:
> > > naudithaurfts auk was jah gadob wistai du garehsn daupeinais
> > > andniman "For it was a necessity and in keeping with nature to
> > > receive the plan of baptism" (Marchand translation).
> > >
> > > So returning to the original question, I think "thaurfts nu
faran
> > > ist" is quite acceptable Gothic too, but perhaps meaning "there
is a
> > > need to travel" or "to go about", rather than "go" in the sense
> > > of "depart", though it's impossible to be definitive from just
one
> > > attested example.
> > >
> > > To say "he needs to go", then might be: "thaurft(s) ist imma
gaggan",
> > > or something like that, the -s being optional (depending on
whether
> > > you treat it as a feminine noun or a neuter adjective).  To
say "we
> > > have to go", with this construction, just swap "imma" for "uns"
> > > or "unsis".
> > >
> > > That's my guess.
> > >
> > > Llama Nom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a
> > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months
FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-
ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Mar
ket_MSNIS_Taglines

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
     gothic-l-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/