[gothic-l] Re: Spanish surnames

[OSCAR HERRERA]

i have family in spain and visit there alot.all i see ia alot of white and german looking people in madrid and other areas as well. there are alot of respectedly alot of meditarranean looking people as well. many western countries have so called different peoples working and living together. we should restrain when it comes to racial differences ,but solving problems that what is right should be everyones goal/

F. E. Jiménez Díaz <visigoth at att.net> wrote:My goodness Herr Faltin,
My post seems to have made you become unhinged. Please be assured that
my intention was not to make you uncomfortable or have you take a
flight of fancy as you have done trying to deconstruct what I have
written. 
Indeed I do hope that we are able to correct one another's mistakes
when mistakes are made but we should do so politely and cogently. I do
admit that in haste I substituted Varus for Valens but that is all,
(very similar names you know) about which you made some hay. Most
decent people would have rather politely pointed to the oversight.
Even so, though not a historically accepted appellation I will choose
to call Alaric's Gothic Victory over Valens, the "Clades Valensiana"
(sic). 
Furthermore, my observation of your comportment stands. - I carefully
read through your posts #7601 and 7602. Your efforts were not
rebuttals but reactions, so strident, so uninformed and so
misrepresentative of ideas that I would not have answered them had I
not read to the very end where you make a deliberate ad hominem
attack, and even worse, a slur I shall not dignify. You sir, have done
great harm to whatever credibility you might have had in these groups.
It is also a disservice to the members of this list to demonstrate
such unprofessional behavior.

I hope everyone will read this and my next post in its entirety and
let things stand on their merit. Even so, I am still willing to
apologize if my original post made you uncomfortable in any way.

And by the way, Also, I am quite aware of your diversionary tactics
when challenging someone's ideas. First you immediately discredit
their ideas with a cautionary preamble making it seem as though your
intellect has detected some heresy and putting them on the defensive.
Then you will selectively parse sentences to make things seem what
they are not. Then you will insert your opinion where it suits
(without giving content or sources) while on the other hand demanding
them of everyone else. Lastly you close with dismissive comments that
make it appear you are right when in fact many times you have only
inserted mere OPINION. ---------- Too bad for you though, the latter
seems to work only with people who are not sufficiently aware of
history, uncritical of ideas or are in awe of your opinion. 

I came to this group from ONN "Oldnorsenet" then with my screen name
of Frodenand and have been here since the under different screen names
as I have changed computers and locations. Interestingly, through that
time I have never had to defend myself in this way. I beg the lists
apology for having to do it, but I cannot let such insults and
baseless assertions stand. I promise that I will not return comments
nor mention these matters again after I post my two responses.

> > F.E.J.D. writes:
> > Presently Leonardo, genetic haplotyping has minimized the inaccuracy
> > of population studies, which relied solely on historical data,
> > craniometry and typology and other circuitous and highly
> > interpretational methods. No longer do we have to accept > >
unreliable
> > and/or sometimes "ulterior" subjective opinions on such things as 
> the
> > genetic contribution of people groups such as Visigoths (the largest
> > of ALL Germanic tribes) 
> 
> 
Faltin writes:
> 
> There is so much wrong with this text that I point out only a few 
> things. The Visigoths were certainly not the largest of all Germanic 
> tribes. Franks, Saxons, Alamannians, Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the 
>North Germanic peoples were all much larger than the >Visigoths.

F.E.J.D. writes:
First of all, please provide sources and content and stop hiding
behind your opinion.
Give us population numbers and approximate dates with citations for
all of the people groups you state. 

Secondly, it is a matter of historic fact that there were only three
sizable Germanic tribes in Iberia (the Visigoths, Vandals and Suebi)
and the Visigoths were by far the largest. 
Actually, people would have read my thought in its correct context had
you not snipped the text at the point which you inserted your
comments. The way it is snipped and separated by your comments (at mid
sentence) is rather convenient though. Is it not? 
Now that you brought up the "Franks, Saxons, Alamannians,
Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians and the North Germanic peoples" as being
larger, you must prove the point.
Again - give us population numbers and approximate dates with
citations for all of the people groups you state. ---- However, you
will surely encounter that tribal groups in Europe at the time I cite
population numbers for the Visigoths (who's estimated population has
some verifiability) are extremely difficult to attain since these
purported tribes were extremely amorphous entities having few
verifiable geographic delineations, and in an almost constant process
of blending in and out of disparate groups. Therefore arriving at
meaningful population numbers is extremely difficult. The latter is
certainly so for the West Germans, (who were mainly farmers), since
certain of the West German tribes we have come to know; the Franks and
Saxons, were amalgamations of many smaller people groups having loose
ties. The latter is especially true of the Alemanni, the tribal group
from which some European states derive their name for the modern state
of Germany. The name Aleman simply means "all men" denoting a melting
pot of the checkerboard of people sharing similar culture that came to
be known as Germany. 
. The Alemanni were in fact a composite nation formed from the Suevian
and other tribes, on the upper Rhine; same goes for the Franks. People
on the lower Rhine formed a "loose" conglomerate under that name. In
fact, most of the tribes in Central Europe remained largely amorphous
and unfocused until quite late, as is the case of the Franks who
largely remain that way until just before the time they are reported
as harassing the Visigoths.
Interestingly, quite often scholars have questioned the extent to
which these small tribes were committed to one another or to a larger
parent tribe. The only evidence of such is a text of Ammianus
Marcellinus that refers to the pactum vicissitudinis redendae, a pact
just promising mutual aid; ------- so much, for the cohesiveness of
these (great tribes?). It is just mere common sense that tribes could
not have had much association with one another or that many large
tribes could have existed in the type of dense forests typical in
Central Europe at the time and well into the early medieval period.
"Bury states that we must picture Germany as consisting of small
territories each of which was surrounded by a dense impenetrable ring
of primeval forest". That ring of woodland impeded attack from other
tribes around them. It is known through archaeological evidence that
"tribal groups" existed in small territories that were claimed from
these dense woodlands. Small tribes grew into large ones and much,
much later into Nation states when these small tribes grew and had to
chop down more of the forest for their expansion. The latter allowed
small tribes to come into contact with other tribes and to establish
some sort of (treaty or understanding) between one another in order to
keep war at bay etc. The reason that East German tribes were large is
because the geographic and environmental area in which they lived was
not densely wooded but rather open and prairie-like and for the most
part were not sedentary farmers.
(Please see The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians. Especially pp10.)


>
> 
> to the Spanish population. Simply by 
> > understanding, contrasting and comparing the relevant haplogroups 
>>and.

> > haplotypes within a given population one is able to tell if there 
> has
> > been any extraneous admixture. It is interesting however that before
> > there was haplotyping it had been thought (quite correctly) by many
> > scholars, that the Visigoths numbered 
> approximately
> > 300,000 in a peninsula of (at the time) 
> 
>
>
Faltin writes:
> This is likely far to high a number. More like 100,000 perhaps more 
> and many of them were, according to the historical sources, hangers 
> on. Runaway Roman peasants, slaves, Roman mine workers and so on, >
> who joined the Visigoths on their way to Spain. 
> 

F.E.J.D. writes:
There is wide debate in this actual number. I've seen as much as
500,000 and as little as 100,000, nonetheless...You AGAIN fail to
provide sources and content; this time, in order to substantiate your
estimate and the idea that many Visigoths were in fact not from
Germanic people groups but rather "hangers on" et al. 

Here, you are making a point of quantifying (AND QUALIFYING), when it
was only necessary to quantify the number of Visigoths. You qualify
the types of individuals who joined the Visigoths by emphasizing that
"many" of those that joined were Roman and on (what has historically
been termed) the margins of society. You do so by using such words as
"hangers on" "Slaves", "peasants", "mine workers", etc. On the other
hand you avoid using individuals having other estates and occupations,
which may have also joined Visigothic ranks. Though it is true that
the lower classes openly welcomed the Visigoths. It is also true that
you deliberately inserted QUALIFYING criteria when qualifying criteria
was not needed. Your insertion of just certain types of estates and
occupations is also rather curious since it is extraneous to the
question of (how many individuals comprised the Visigoths and then
other tribes). The latter makes it appear that you inserted the latter
purposely. Furthermore, I can think of no other reason for doing so
other that to qualify the types of people that entered Spain.
Therefore you selectively make it seem that "many" Visigoths that
entered Spain were in fact not the descendants of ethnic Visigoths but
rather Romans and slaves, what has historically been considered as the
offal of society. Could it be that you would want readers to come away
with the idea that the Visigoths that entered Spain were less
desirable or somehow tainted by such individuals among their ranks?
Could it also be that you would like others to think that the Spanish
populace are in part descended from (as you say) "slaves, peasants
etc..." If so, let it be. However, your point is absurd, one cannot
delineate the Visigoths in such away. Though it is now obvious that
they were not all direct descendants of the original people groups
that we have come to know as Goths. They were more importantly the
originators and representatives of certain ideas that greatly impacted
the European world, which is why they are interesting and worthy of
study. As such, whatever type of individual joined their ranks matters
little. They certainly held together well by culture and language but
certainly also by certain ideas that transcended territorial origin,
occupation and estate. A good lesson for all of us in this day and age.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> [3,500,000 inhabitants
> > (Kenneth W. Harl, Tulane U. 1998)]. Likewise, (Stanley Payne, 1973)
> > concluded that the same number existed after the time of Alaric II
> > (484-507); a ratio of (11.66) to (1). The later ratio is in fact 
> close
> > to the present ratio of African-Americans to European Americans in 
> the
> > U.S, a sizable element in the overall population. Even so, it is
> > further thought that despite pressures from disease etc; the
> > Visigothic law of "thirds", (where 2/3 of each Hispano-Roman villa 
> was
> > confiscated by Visigoths), would have given the Visigoths a greater
> > advantage in increasing their numbers, that, since the ability to
> > raise comestibles by having more land and better soils would have
> > favored Visigoth families over those who had poor soil and less land
> > and could not raise as much food. Furthermore, by projecting the
> > previous trend to 711CE (a period of some 200 years) it is quite
> > conceivable that the Visigoths could have narrowed the previously
> > stated ratio to as little as 10 to 1. You must also notice that I 
> have
> > not factored-in other people Germanic people already in the 
> peninsula,
> > they are simply not included as part of the Visigothic population,
> > namely the Suebi, which probably numbered around 80,000, and the
> > remnant Vandals that remained in Spain or returned to the Balearic
> > Islands and elsewhere after their ruinous mission to the south,
> > however these were probably few. – Nonetheless, underpinning the 
> best
> > estimate of Visigoth admixture in Spain is the presence of suspect
> > genetic signatures in the Y-chromosome and/or mtDNA of extant
> > individuals where an inference may be made. The latter is in the
> > process of being collected from the extant populations of (Spain,
> > Pomerania, Gotland, and Southern Sweden as well as other suspected
> > homelands.
> 
> Faltin writes: 
>
> One cannot, but smile and shake ones head at such nonsense.
> I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic 
> people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
> Dirk

F.E.J.D. writes:
The last part of my post seems to have made you writhe uncomfortably.
I can actually picture you "shaking your head" in disgust.
However, I ask myself however, why would you say such things? It is
terribly discourteous and unprofessional to behave in such a way
towards anyone. If you have disagreements, I suggest you substantiate
them (as I have) in an intellectual cogent manner. Instead, you attack
me in an ad hominem manner. Such tactics are a sign that you can no
longer defend your points through reason.
FURTHERMORE:
WHAT YOU STATE, (THAT IS), THAT I WILL "SUCCEED IN CALCULATING THE
SPANISH INTO A GERMANIC PEOPLE" IS PATENTLY SLANDEROUS TOWARDS ME, MY
RESEARCH FELLOWS AND OUR PROFESSIONAL ETHICS. I WOULD ((( NEVER )))
WILLINGLY CAUSE AN EXPERIMENT OR STUDY TO SKEW IN ANY DIRECTION. to be
ACCUSED OF THAT BY ANYONE IS BEYOND THE PALE.
BE ADVICED THAT IF YOU WERE PRESENTLY IN THIS COUNTRY, I WOULD BRING A
LAW SUIT AGAINST YOU IMMEDIATELY. OUR CONSTITUTION DOES –NOT- PROTECT
SLANDEROUS SPEECH. THUS, BE ADVICED ---- YOUR COMMENTS WERE PATENTLY
SLANDEROUS.
I ALSO ASK THE MODERATOR TO TAKE NOTICE (SINCE THIS LIST IS IN THE
UNITED STATS), I HOPE THAT PROPER ACTION BE BROUGHT AGAINST YOU; NOT
ONLY FOR YOUR SLANDEROUS STATEMENTS BUT ALSO FOR YOUR RACIST COMMENTS
WHICH HEREAFTER I SHALL MAKE KNOWN. THEY ARE FOUND AT THE END OF YOUR
CLOSING. 
((( I HOPE EVERYONE HAS PICKED-UP ON THEM)) AND I HOPE THEY ARE ALSO
PASSED ON TO THE GERMANIC LIST IN WHICH YOU ARE ALSO A MEMBER.

YOUR COMMENTS STATE:
>"I am sure you will succeed in calculating the Spanish into a Germanic 
> people, strange only that most of them just don't look the part;-)
> Dirk

You end your statement with an emoticon (how mature). Obviously the
winking emoticon is meant to be condescending and dismissive of the
idea that Spaniards could ever be partly descended from Visigoths. It
is purposely meant to be a disparaging remark to all Spaniards and me. 
Had you stated the same phrase in a scholarly manner it would have
been taken as a bonafide question, however, your choice of words
followed by the emoticon clearly betray your intentions, it in fact
was meant to be clearly derogatory and offensive. EVERYONE - PLEASE
TAKE NOTICE!

Here, it is plainly evident you think people have to look a certain
way in order to be of Germanic ancestry (but how about those
individuals of full "Germanic ancestry" that are not the
"stereotypical idea" of Germanic, that is blond and blue-eyed)? Take
for example Franz Josef Wenzel, the prince of Liechtenstein and so
many others. And by the way, just what, in your opinion, do Germanic
people have to look like Herr Faltin? 
? Please substantiate your opinion ----- However, I suspect that you
won't since citing racist or anthropologically discredited literature
would immediately give you away and disclose exactly what you are and
feel. It is quite clear that you think most Spaniards do not meet your
criteria. That is why you constantly chafe every time someone brings
up the question of Visigothic descent in the Spanish populace. I say,
if one is partly descended from a certain people group then let the
genes speak for themselves, but I wonder if "you" would submit to
being genotyped? --- I wonder if you would be surprised?
You nonetheless, seem to chafe at the very idea that Spaniards are
partly descended from Visigoths who inhabited a common homeland. In
turn you ascribe to us decent from certain people groups at rates that
are not scientifically tenable and that (without sources and content).
The proof that you have done so is all over this list's archives. In
months past, your answers to me and to other individuals citing
anything to do with Visigothic heritage have been consistently
UNSUBSTANTIATED and full of negative opinion and dismissive comments.
I wonder---- what could be your reasons for doing so?
Anthropologically, both of your assertions are patently incorrect and
laughable. I will not dignify them with further answers.

Quite evidently you have shown your true colors, (pun intended).

Lastly, I am only a molecular anthropologist whose only desire is to
know how we got here, our descent. That sir is what drives me. The
Spanish people are what they are. I have no subjective desire to be or
to make others seem what we are not, whether "Germanic" or part of any
other people group. The very idea of desiring to be what we are not is
quite absurd anyway don't you think? Rather, we search such
connections in our genome because humans are curious about the world,
because we want to connect to our other fellow humans in profound and
intimate ways and because it is potentially expedient from a medical
point of view. It is also wonderful that we have such a tool in
genetics to let us search our connections and dispel the racist
theories and quackery so rampant today. All of us are actually related
anyway. 

Actually I was going to answer Faltin's other post but I will not
dignify its contents nor take up this list' s time and bandwidth
unless the moderator and a majority feel that I ought to do so.

I send this in haste, please pardon grammatical errors and
LASTLY; beg the lists pardon for having to write this.

Thank you all,
F.E.J.D.






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