[gothic-l] Re: du usfilhan ana gastim

Fri Nov 12 13:32:59 UTC 2004

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell at o...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Sigi,
>
> And thanks for your suggestions!
>
> > As far
> > as I know, there is no single verb in the Gothic Bible for the
> > (jewish?) custom of stoning someone; rather, it is translated
> > by "throwing stones *ana* someone".
>
> At 2Cor 11,25 eliqasqhn = stainiths was "I was stoned".  Another
> alternative, with a nominal compliment, but no preposition J 11,8:
> sokidedun thuk afwairpan stainam "sought to stone thee"
> (instrumental dat.)
>
> I see that all the examples you give, of throwing something at
> someone, have ANA +acc.  I wonder if there are any dative
examples?
> With verbs of "going", as you know, the opposition with ANA and IN
> is:
>
> +acc. = direction
> +dat. = position, direction
>
> Acc. is maybe twice as commonly used for direction?  The situation
> is similar with IN, with acc. possibly 3 times as common for
> direction -- but this difference in proportion might not be
> significant: I only counted a small sample.  UF and UNDAR might
> behave in a similar way, but I think there's only one example each
> of acc. (direction) & dat. (position) with UF.  And one acc.
> (direction) with UNDAR.  So this is more of an inference.
>
> But both acc. & dat. are used with ANA for things falling or thrown
> onto the ground, or "descending onto":
>
> 1) Mk 11,8 wastjom seinaim strawidedun ana wiga "they strewed their
> clothes on the road"
>
> 2) Mat 5,45 jah rigneith ana garaihtans jah inwidans "it rains on
> the just and the unjust"
>
>
> So maybe ANA +dat. could theoretically be used as well as ANA +acc.
> for missiles, etc. striking a non horizontal object.  Or maybe not,
> I don't know...  Acc. seems to be more common, anyway.
>
> 3) L 1,35 ahma weihs atgaggith ana thuk "the Holy Spirit shall come
> upon you"
>
> 4) J 7,39 ni nauhthanuh was ahma sa weiha ana im "the Holy Spirit
> was not yet upon them"
>
> Metaphorical uses continue the pattern, with acc. where the image
is
> of a horizontal trajectory "at, against", and dat. for things
> falling "onto, on top of": gadriusan ana +dat. (R 11,22), afhrisjan
> ana +acc. (L 9,5), (faur)sniwan ana +acc. (1Thess 2,16; 1Tim 1,8),
> weitwodjan ana +acc.(J 27, 13), ushof fairzna ana mik (J 13,18).
Do
> you know any exceptions?
>
>
>
> > So, my guess is that "usfilhan ana gastim" means: "to be buried
> > towards/near/at the foreigners", expressing negative connotations
> of
> > the burial location (perhaps something like "they threw his body
> in
> > the ground where they bury the foreigners, a grave unfit for a
> jew").
>
>
> To recap: the priests are talking not about where to bury Judas,
who
> has only just gone off to hang himself, but what to do with the
> field.  But yes I guess it could be "they got rid of the field and
> threw it (metaphorically) at the foreigners for them to use for
> their burials."  Right, I'll try to paraphrase the suggestions so
> far:
>
> 1) to be buried in, by foreigners (Terry)
> 2) ? to bury ... foreigners (Durante)
> 3) for burials among the foreign community (Llama)
> 4) at the foreigners, for their burials (Sigi)
>
> Appologies to everyone who's ideas I may have garbled here!  In
> defense of Terry's suggestion, we should probably bear in mind that
> the natural word order may be distorted (or unexpectedly natural),
> and that an adverbial ANA wouldn't sound so strange if it read:
> gastim du anafilhan -- apart from the fact that this would mean
> something quite different "to commend to foreigners".  Actually,
> come to think of it, that might be a good reason *not* to think of
> it as adverbial in this instance, quite apart from the lack of
other
> examples of it appearing as a separable adverb.
>
> I wonder what the force of the Greek dative is here (tois cenois).
> English translations suggest "for foreigners", which would make me
> expect a Gothic preposition like FAUR (cf. 1Cor 5,7, etc.) or AT
> (cf. Mk 3,9; J 14,23; N 5,15).
>
> In defense of ANA = "among", cf. 2Cor 7,7 and Calendar 10,23 & 29.
> Although I'm not sure to what extent _ana guttthiudai_ would
> mean "among the Goths", or "in the land of the Goths".
>
> Llama Nom
>
>

Hi Sigi and Llama Nom,

Sigi's examples for the use of this Gothic preposition 'ana' seem
very plausible to a native German speaker. Thus Gothic 'ana speiwan',
would be 'an speien' in German (to spit at). In other words,
Gothic 'ana' seems quite similar to modern German 'an'. As for the
use of 'ana' for 'in the land of ...', in an older biblical German I
remember the form 'Da er ward gekommen an dem Lande der ...' (i.e.
Whence he had come in the land of ...'. Modern German 'an' is here
used like 'into, to' which is similar the last example by Llama Nom
above which suggests that Gothic 'ana' could also be used in this
sense.

Cheers
Dirk

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