[gothic-l] Re: Gothic & Greek B in Slabonic + izba

[OSCAR HERRERA]

this question is for llama nom. was attila a goth or as known the hun.wasnt it true the huns spoke goth as well.how was their racial makeup made up of and who presently can be said to be descendants of the huns.this question is out of the blue but i watch alot of programs on cable tv about the attila and the huns.also his name wasnt it given to him by the goths.

åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at ipiran.ru> wrote:*****



Hi Llama nom!



Let's leave the "Romance influence" regarding 
the initial on Wade's conscience. 
Any "sporadic phenomenon" needs an acceptable 
explanation as well.

As to the example , it has no relation 
to our topic. This word has in Russian a Turkic origin 
(cf. Izmiretc.). The elder form for 'emerald' in OR borrowed 
from Persian was .

Now about the "hard sign". Yes, the "hard sign" 
reflected a weak hard unstressed vowel in Church 
Slavonic or Old Bulgarian (in modern Bulgarian 
this letter may be stressed), which should be omitted 
in Russian during the so called "fall of reduced vowels" 
in XII c. Thus, the question is where was the accent 
in and especially . (Note that 
the accent in the Russian is upon the last 
syllable in all cases of the singular, but it shifts 
to the first syllable in the plural.)

I do not know prehistory of the word , but 
the sound did not exist in OR. It appeared 
in place of either the former diphthong or 
just the nasal .

The Russian was borrowed from German 
with a meaning very close to the English 'stool' 
(including the medical notion, but rather 'chair', 
i.e. a seat with a back). Moreover, another borrowing 
from Norse might be suspected for the word , 
which has in modern Russian the meaning 'table', 
but in OR had the sense 'throne'. The earliest 
written attestation is an inscription 
i.e. "Vladimir on the throne" 
on first coins ( and ) minted 
in Kiev in XI c. You can find an impressive description 
of the throne of Russian kagans (highest rank rulers 
of Kiev Rus') in Ibn Fadlan's Travel Notes 
"Travel to Volga" of 922 A.D. Kagans' resembles 
there a huge King Arthur's Round table, with the kagan 
sitting upon (!) the Table-throne and never leaving it 
even to serve his physical needs (sorry for such 
not very lofty details).



Vladimir



-----Original Message-----
From: llama_nom [mailto:penterakt at fsmail.net]
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 4:57 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic & Greek B in Slabonic + izba




Hi Vladimir!

Thanks for your thoughts. I think Wade will have been aware of 
Preobrazhensky; but not vice versa. Wade's book was published in 
1996, and is much smaller and less comprehensive. And thanks for 
putting me right on . I must have just read the italic 
Cyrilic 
as Roman !! I'm very ignorant about the history of 
Russian, so for now I can only quote the ideas I've read. Regarding 
the initial , Wade says this is either due to "Romance influence" 
(He doesn't elebourate on this), or a "sporadic phenomenon", of which 
he gives one other example: 'emeralds'.

In the CSl. form I quoted, , that would be spelt in Roman 
letters with a diacritic indicating the indistinct vowel which is 
represented in CSl. with the symbol that is now the "hard sign" in 
Russian. Would this imply an unstressed syllable in Church Slavonic?

The example of is interesting. I wonder if this had a nasal 
at one time? cf. English 'stamp', etc. Another borrowing with no 
initial is , which might be from Norse or German.


Llama Nom









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