[gothic-l] Re: Reflexive pronouns + sa/is revisited

[llama_nom]

Hi Gerry,

I'm afraid I haven't had time yet to follow this us properly.  But 
it will be interesting to have a good look at these matters.  A 
couple of examples so far:

1) J 6,71 sa auk habaida ina galewjan "for he would [later] betray 
him"

= outos...auton


2) J 18,13 jah attauhun ina du Annin frumist; sa was auk swaihra 
Kajafin, saei was "And led him away to Annas first; for he was 
father in law to Caiaphas, who was...

nothing...nothing...'os

New clause there though, of course.


3) L 8,37 ina...iþ is (both = Jesus)

4) Mk 6,27 CA  jah suns insandjands sa þiudans spaikulatur, anabauþ 
briggan haubiþ is. iþ is galeiþands afmaimait imma haubiþ in karkarai

And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head 
to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,

auton = imma (other pronouns not expressed in Greek)

In both 3 & 4, "iþ is" signals a change of subject.


5) R 14,3 iþ sa ni matjands þana matjandan ni stojai; guþ auk ina 
andnam

'o de...auton


But I'll try to find more examples like 1 of the two pronouns in the 
same clause.

Llama Nom




--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor at a... wrote:
> This email might better be called Sa, Is, and Wright. It is about 
the remark 
> by Wright in his Grammar of the Gothic Language concerning the use 
of the 
> pronouns "sa" and "is". Llama_nom unearthed the following from 
paragraph 431:
> 
> "IS is sometimes used where we should expect 
> SA". He gives these examples:
> 
> (1) iþ is dugann merjan filu...swaswe is ni mahta in baurg galeiþan
> "and he (the beggar) began to tell everyone...so that he (Jesus) 
> couldn´t go into the city"
> 
> (2) saei bigitiþ saiwala seina fraqisteiþ izai, jah saei 
fraqisteiþ 
> saiwalai seinai in meina, bigitiþ þo.
> 
> Perhaps to avoid the kind of ambiguity that arises in English when 
there are 
> two people that could be "he", as in (1) above Wulfila 
distinguished between 
> them by use of "is" and "sa", possibly in a way natural to Gothic, 
or perhaps 
> in imitation of the original Greek, which in the passage in 
question, Mark 
> 1:45, uses two different pronouns: "ho de" - "and he" for the 
beggar, and "auton 
> dynasthai" - "him to be able" for Jesus. I have an impression 
that "ho de" in 
> Greek is used to introduce a contrast: X did one thing but Y did 
another. 
> However, further comment on this should come not from me but from 
folk with good 
> knowledge of Greek. It would also be useful to have a list of 
sentences in which 
> Gothic uses both "is" (or ina etc) and "sa" (or thana etc). Does 
anyone know 
> how to make a word processor search in the required manner?
> 
> I can shed no light on (2). There seems to be no ambiguity in the 
Greek of 
> Matt 10:39, from which (2) comes, even though the same 
word "auten" corresponds 
> to both "izai" and "þo" in the Gothic.
> 
> Another thing about pronouns. In paragraph 263 of Wright it is 
stated that 
> "sein" and its derivatives are used only when they refer to the 
subject of the 
> sentence they are in. But consider Matt 8:22,
> 
>     let þans dauþans gafilhan seinans dauþans.
>     leave the dead to bury their dead.
> 
> The subject of this sentence is the implicit "þu" of the 
imperative "let", 
> and so here the rule is broken. The placement of "seinans" is also 
unusual. 
> Perhaps both features are something to do with the original Greek, 
which has the 
> reflexive possessive heautón instead of the more usual autón (the 
accent on the 
> o, if it has transmitted right, is meant to show that the vowel is 
long, 
> being omega), and places it before its noun, as in the Gothic. 
Perhaps the 
> construction was emphatic. Again, it would be useful to have the 
help of someone 
> competent in Greek.
> 
> Gerry T.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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