Gothic religion

[OSCAR HERRERA]

or maybe the thracians adopted the gothic lingo......i thought alot of peoples including the huns had spoken or adopted goth as their language...also i thought some other german tribes as well had adopted gothic as their language, like the lombards, the franks, the suevi, alans, etc.....

dciurchea <dciurchea at yahoo.com> wrote:          Hi everybody.

Let me explain the names by using the thracian connection:

Thaurisind = Taurus sunt -I am a Bull ( both like in Latin)
Taurismund = Taurus mânz - The colt of the Bull (Taurus like in 
Latin, mânz=colt laike in Dacian)
Malasuentha=Mala sunta - The saint Mala - Sunta means saint

Please note that Jordannes clearly specifies that "gepidae and gets 
are related" (XVII);

In thracian the suffix -ic denotes a diminutive(conserved in 
Bulgarian : Balc-ic Romanian: Bas-ica, mam-ica, tat-ic and Turk: 
ishl-ic). (Small Balc=Balcic. Small Theodosie becomes Theodosic. 

Now, the monk in charge of manuscript copy observed the peculiar 
shape of S and assumed it is greek Rho and thus Theodosic became 
Theodoric.
--------------------
My I underline that the Amal dinasty is of Getic(thracian) origin, 
as stated by Jordannes in the context of the daco-roman war in 87AD 
(when Fuscus was massacrated). 
"He sent Fuscus before him as his general with picked soldiers. Then 
joining boats together like a bridge, he made his soldiers cross 
the river Danube above the army of Dorpaneus. (78) But the Goths 
were on the alert. They took up arms and presently overwhelmed the 
Romans in the first encounter. They slew Fuscus, the commander, and 
plundered the soldiers' camp of its treasure. And because of the 
great victory they had won in this region, they thereafter called 
their leaders, by whose good fortune they seemed to have 
conquered, not mere men, but demigods, that is Ansis. Their 
genealogy I shall run through briefly, telling the lineage of each 
and the beginning and the end of this line. And do thou, O reader, 
hear me without repining; for I speak truly.
(79) Now the first of these heroes, as they themselves relate in 
their legends, was Gapt, who begat Hulmul. And Hulmul begat 
Augis;....."

Moreover, this text contains the Thracian (Romanian) phonem 
Ansis=themselves, that is the former subjects became Basilei 
themselves and thus a new royal house was founded (oher that of the 
dacian king in charge Decebalus).

Moreover the tomb of Theodosic(intensionally sic instead of ric - 
see below) in Ravenna has wall paintings depicting Gets (frigian cap-
as the Thracians and decorated pants as the Scythians).

- ostrogotha (Lustra-gotha)- illustruous Goths - the fonem lustra 
means shining in today's Romanian(lux also in latin but with 
different meaning)
- visigotha (Vaza-gota) - the fonem vaza means outstanding (in your 
sight- there greatness is visible, allways hold in sight) in 
today's Romanian. The latin correspondent is visa, visu, again with 
different meaning.
- The explanations for ostrogotha and visigotha are recorded 
similarly in "Erdely Tortenete" also but with less precision: 
(http://mek.niif.hu/03400/03407/html/22.html):"Having conquered 
Transylvania, the formerly united Gothic tribes divided into two 
groups. The Ostrogoths (austro = 'bright, shining, brilliant') 
settled east of the Dniester, as far as the Crimean Peninsula, while 
the Visigoths (vezu/vizu = 'good, brave, valiant') established 
themselves west of the Dniester.")

- a toponimic Tautis used by Jordannes, which was not identified as 
a big river actually means "source", tau in today's Romanian. There 
are a lot of Tauti villages, at least 2 around Cluj.

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> Hails wis thu, Kunjareth!
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@> 
wrote:
> > 
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > > Couldn't it have developed in a manner like this: PG *Thunraz
> > > Fergunijaz (epithet meaning smth like "Thor the Mountainous", 
> i.e.
> > > ruling over mountain peaks)? Which epithet was later 
understood 
> as a
> > > separate name of Thor's parent, feminine *Fergunijo (> ON 
> Fjörgyn).
> > > Or it was inherited from the same IE source as the Baltic 
forms 
> (add
> > > to them Thracian PERKWN, OSl. PerunÚ and Hett. Pirwa with 
> dropped -k-
> > > and, perhaps, OInd. Parjanya, lit. "rain cloud"). Lithuanian 
has
> > > perkunija "thunder-storm", a precise equivalent of PG. 
> *fergunijo >
> > > ON Fjörgyn. It could be Gothic *Thunrs Fairguneis "Iuppiter
> > > Montanus" resp. *Fairguni F.-jo (gen. *Fairgunjos), goddess of
> > > earth's bones (= mouintains, fairgunja), closely associated 
with 
> the
> > > thunder-god.
> > 
> > I am not sure why the Germanic thunder/rain god was called 
> *thunraz,
> > aside from the obvious etymology, while ON fiorgynn and fiorgyn 
> were
> > preserved as separate, but related, gods. About all that I can 
say
> > about it is that it is a Germanic development, which is not 
really
> > saying much. Parjanya is celebrated in the Veda, typically enough
> > gives rain and fertility, etc.. This is the same god as ON 
> fiorgynn,
> > Lith. perkunas, Latv. perkon, etc.. In reconstructing IE 
religion,
> > this is one god that the experts include without fail, as far as 
I
> > have been able to tell. But the Germanics have the thunder/rain-
god
> > as the offspring of this god in the feminine. I can offer no more
> > than guesses as to why. I asked a Hindu friend of mine, who 
happens
> > to be a scholar on Hinduism, some time ago about parjanya. I 
wanted
> > to know if he thundered or only rained. I ended up reading 
> religious
> > hymns to parjanya from the Veda (there are several). There seems 
to
> > be no indication that he thunders, but that he gives rain, 
growth,
> > and protects folk, etc.. It sounds to me like *thunraz was 
perhaps
> > thought of as being born of the earth and the dark clouds 
bringing
> > rain, and that he somehow assumes a more active function like 
> Indra.
> > Thus, the wind-god (Indic va:ta, Germ. *wo:danaz), might be 
thought
> > of as his father, as he drives the clouds and rain.
> 
> How does this etymology correlate to the traditional view on *wo:d-
> anaz < IE *wa:t- "fury", "ardor", "(poetic) inspiration" etc? 
Maybe 
> it's the same root? Widsith mentions Wada, king of Helsingjaland, 
if 
> I don't mistake, who = MHG Wate in Kudrun, and he seems to be 
> connected rather with the sea... Notice also the name of an 
> Ostrogothic princess Uadamerca (Get. 249).
> 
> > This is just a
> > guess, but take a look at the heavens on a windy day, when the 
rain
> > is blown hard and the clouds move fast, and when thunder strikes,
> > and then draw your own conclusions as to how a pre-modern person
> > might have interpreted these phenomona.
> > 
> > > It may be doubted that the cult of *Wodanaz did already exist 
> (see
> > > my previous post), and so PG *Teiwaz > *Ti:waz (Go. *Teiws) 
was 
> most
> > > likely the principal god of heaven in the PG epoch, judging by 
> his
> > > IE parallels, you know, OInd. Dyaus, deva; Avest. daeva; Greek 
> ZEUS;
> > > Lat. Iouis, deus; OIr. dia; OPr. deiws; Lith. dievas and so 
> forth...
> > > Maybe it was *Teiwaz (ON Tyr) who was the original "all-
father",
> > > remember the known IE poetic formula *Dyew pater "oh heaven-
> father",
> > > attested in OInd. Dyaus pita, Greek ZEU PATER, Lat. Iuppiter,
> > > Illyrian DEIPATYROS etc. It could be PG *Teiwi faðer (voc.) > 
Go.
> > > *Teiw fadar...
> > 
> > Well, the idea of *ti:waz as the heaven-father (the bright-
heaven),
> > and even as an all-powerful god, is preserved in Norse sources. 
One
> > should notice that he, unlike the other gods, does not live in 
the
> > god's home *ansugardaz. Instead, *wo:danaz is the ruler there. 
Now,
> > the idea seems to be that there are gods (lead by *wod:anaz), 
elves
> > (who are good and the god's friends, but have their own home), 
who
> > seem to match the Vedic rbhus in being originally a cult of 
ancient
> > fathers, and the etuno:z (who are amoral, wild forces combating 
the
> > gods and men - Vedic ya:tu, Germ. *etunaz).
> 
> It seems problematic as far as the comparative phonology is 
> concerned. The traditional etymology says ON jötunn comes from 
> eta "to eat", perhaps in the sense "greedy for food", "ever-
hungry" 
> (compare þurs "ever-thirsty"). Which root is Skr. ád- (ádmi, Greek 
> EDOMAI "I eat"). The j-Anlaut is purely ON here (cf. OE eoten = ON 
> jötunn). From Skr. ya:tu (more exactly, from PIE *ya:tu-s) we 
could 
> expect something like PG *jôþuz or *jôðuz, depending on the 
stress, 
> > ON *jöðr M.-u (?). Maybe it's rather Skr. yadu, one of panca 
> janáh, "five Aryan gentes", mentioned in Rgveda, but it doesn't 
fit 
> the Germanic forms either (both phonetically and semantically).
> 
> > I think the idea that a
> > cult of *wo:danaz was somehow late, and not indigenous to 
Germanics
> > from early times, is false. It is a false idea based on 
conjectures
> > and modern theorizing around the idea that only one god can the 
top
> > one (foreign influence, I think). The Veda does not insist on any
> > one god being the top one, but tends rather to see them as 
separate
> > but overlapping (i.e they can share characteristics), while 
being 
> at
> > the same time agents of the more impersonal all-power (brahman). 
> The
> > point here is not to discuss old Aryan theology (of topic here), 
> but
> > simply to suggest that the IE god va:ta/wo:danaz is indigenous to
> > Germanics, as well as t:iwaz, and that power-struggles between 
> them,
> > and argumentation about their relative importance/function, were
> > certainly foreign to old Germanic folk. The complexites of heaven
> > were probably thought of much as we accept the co-existence of 
> trees
> > and rivers and rocks. There were no theologians, nor any 
> comparative
> > religion. Things tended to be experienced, accepted and passed 
on 
> as
> > passed on as the way things were. Thus, while ON folk had o:dinn 
as
> > the ruling god af a:sgardr, leader of gods and maker of men, they
> > also had ty:r, by whom they swore their oaths (as he is ethical 
and
> > can be counted on to punish oath-breakers, matching Vedic Varuna 
on
> > this point). Now, ty:r was more abstract and has none of the 
> complex
> > mythology surrounding o:dinn, having only one name (not 
hundreds),
> > no known children and no residence in a:sgradr. According the 
Norse
> > mythology, he does not die or participate in ragnarok (Snorri 
being
> > wrong on this point and having no sources to support himself 
here).
> > Vedic Indians swore by varuna, who bound the faithful by ring-
> oaths,
> > receiving the oath and holding the ring, binding and punishing 
> those
> > who broke the oath. Likewise, the Norse temple oath (...hialpi 
me:r
> > sva: freyr ok niordr ok hinn allma:ttki a:ss) ends with a 
> references
> > to an almighty, unnamed *ansuz.
> 
> That's new for me! Could you please remind me of the source where 
> this oath is recorded? It could be Gothic: "...hilpai meina swa 
> Iggwus jah Nairthus jah sa <all>mahteiga ansus!"
> 
> > The pattern of the 3 named is earth-
> > sea-heaven (where each of the 3 mentioned can stand for an entire
> > realm). Jon Hnefill Adalsteinsson (Blot i norraenum sid), as 
well 
> as
> > some other scholars of these things, suggests that the almighty 
one
> > is ty:r, being supreme. I agree with him, and some others, about
> > this. Another idea is that the supreme god was altogether 
separate,
> > another that he was o:dinn. However, my point is that we are not
> > dealing with any middle eastern beliefs here, and that the ruler 
of
> > gods and maker of men need not be almighty, or the only god, in 
IE
> > religion, from which Germanic religion developed. Lastly, I would
> > suggest that both ti:waz and wo:danaz were inherited by Germanics
> > from their IE ancestors, not imported into Germania at a later 
> date.
> > 
> > > I'd prefer to use *thauris M.-a rather than *ituns, as the 
former
> > > is at least attested in East-Germanic personal names. OE has 
> eoten,
> > > which could suggest Go. *itans as well...
> > 
> > I do not think that *thauris, in the meaning giant, is attested 
in
> > Go. personal names. Something must be amiss here. The word 
relates
> > to dryness, lack of water/rain, tieing into crop-failure, disease
> > and dehydration. I am not aware of any Germanic personal names 
that
> > invoke these powers, which were thought of enemies of the gods. 
But
> > we do see a lot of elements like *ansu-, *ragina-, *albi/a-, 
*guda-
> ,
> > *hro:thi-, *aiwi-, *gaiza-, etc. etc. etc. - all of which 
connoted
> > good things to ancient Germanics. About Go. *ituns, I consider 
it a
> > most certain reconstruction, being found not only in other 
Germanic
> > languages, but even in ancient Indic. Of course, we would not 
> expect
> > it to occur as an element in Germanic personal names, for obvious
> > reasons, or in a Bible-translation, for equally obvious ones, 
hence
> > it is not attested in extant Go., much like *thunrs.
> 
> Paulus Diaconus mentions in his Historia Langobardorum (I:23ff) 
> Turisindus, the king of enemy Gepides, and Turismodus his son, 
which 
> are Gothic *Thauris-swinths "strong as a thurs" and *Thauris-
> moths "wrathful as a thurs" (compare SnE 51 [þá snyst Miðgarðsormr 
> í] jötunmóð, where jötunmóðr = *þursmóðr < PG *þurisa-móðaz > Go. 
> thauris-moths). Further we find Visigothic Thorismundus (*Thauris-
> mundus "protected by thursar") and Ostrogothic Thorisa (*Thauriza 
M.-
> an, probably a short form of smth like *Thauris-mundus). I don't 
> think they were omitting everything "negative" in their names, 
that 
> they were so strongly dualist in their beliefs to do it. We find 
> names with PG *wurma- (e.g. ON Ormarr = OE Wyrmhere and many more) 
> which definitely refer to Miðgarðsormr (there were no other 
> important "worms" in the Germanic mythology, as far as I know). 
One 
> of the most popular name-words was *wulfa-, and the wolf was no 
> better friend to the gods and the men either:). A Goth might 
easily 
> be named *Hunimundus "protected by the Huns", but I doubt that he 
> would be hesitating to fight against his "protectors" if commanded 
> so by his immediate thiudans. Here, we can observe an interesting 
> family tradition (Get. 81), they are all *Amaliggos, 
> posited "father - son": *Agiwulfs ("fear-wolf") - *Airmanareiks 
> ("great ruler", but maybe it was just a title?) - *Hunimundus - 
> *Thaurismundus - *Bairamoths ("bear's wrath")... A particular clan 
> adoring "dark forces", proto-Satanist? Or maybe it was not so 
> unusual to take names after "negative" characters of the myths and 
> epics, and really important was that these guys were "strong", not 
> that they were "bad"? Remember Zoroastrian kings who practised 
> sacrifices to Ahriman and his demons, not to make them personal 
> enemies, I guess.
> 
> > Side note. Interestingly enough, the Arian theological view 
(christ
> > is not the father, not co-eternal, but made by him - for the 
> purpose
> > of delivering man through the gospel) can easily be made to 
include
> > other creations or agents of god, the father, like *thunrs and
> > *wo:dans, who would then, as before, be seen as agents of good
> > fighting the *itunos on the side of man, top agents of god, 
father,
> > against the forces of darkness, with the devil being in christian
> > myth an equivalent of the *itunos. The end would come, evil ended
> > and a new world arise for the good (redemption day), as in both 
of
> > these faiths (and in Zoroastrianism). In fact, Zoroastrianism 
could
> > even have been included as well ;) There is a supreme god/power
> > (called guth, masc.sg., teiws or simply sa alamahteiga ansus, as 
in
> > Zoroastrian ahura (Indic Asura). This power is good, opposing 
and 
> in
> > the end eliminating an evil power (angra mainyu, *itunos, 
satan). 
> It
> > has its message-agents with good teachings (Xristus, Zarathustra 
> and
> > Wodans), each with their sayings/teachings and own mythologies, 
> each
> > with co-agents/angels/demi-gods at their side (equivalents). 
Now, I
> > of course realize that this scenario is imaginary, but 
interesting
> > it is, indeed, to imagine a history where the Goths win, survive,
> > and formulate a syncratistic religion, whereby they (and the 
other
> > groups, who do likewise ;) develope a new, tolerant Europe, where
> > everyone has a) their own ethnic religion b) 2 universal ones 
> shared
> > by all 3) literacy in their own language 4) good relations with 
all
> > their neighbors :-) Theoretically, at least, Arian theology could
> > have had some interesting consequences.
> > 
> > > When talking of the early Middle Age I'd rather think that the
> > > religious fanaticism was predominant in the Christian world, 
and
> > > that the cases of a relatively tolerant rule (like one of
> > > Thiudareiks sa Mikila in Italy) were exceptionally rare.
> > 
> > Well, he was, after all, a Goth ;) He must have been proud of his
> > heathen ancestors as well as his christian ones. But seriously, I
> > think so much of the documented, mideaval christian fanaticism 
was
> > not christian at all, really. Many folk, even whole nations (like
> > Prussia, and most of Lithuania, etc.), were wiped out, destroyed 
in
> > bloody evangelical campaigns. Mass killings, rapes, torture, 
forced
> > conversion from one end to the other. What happened was that folk
> > used the banner of christian religion for purposes that is was 
not
> > designed for, acting in a way not encouraged by christian 
teaching.
> > One can't really blame it on christianity, at least as a 
religion. 
> I
> > bare the blame for what I do, you for what you do, not Xristus or
> > Wodans or anyone else, even if our sins are forgiven. Simply 
saying
> > that my sins are forgiven, so I can do anything I want without 
any
> > consequences and be forgiven later, is not my idea of good 
> doctrine.
> > Never bought the faith alone saves argument, but I can dream 
about,
> > and easily live with, the Gothic-inspired dream scenario above ;)
> > 
> > pax :)
> > kunjareths
> 
> gawairthi in mannam godis wiljins
> walhahrabns
>



         


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