"Victovaloke" (was: Re: Name of the Goths)
dciurchea
dciurchea at YAHOO.COM
Tue Aug 8 21:07:34 UTC 2006
Dear Francisc,
I sincerely regret that you continue to excuse or arrange the
mistifications in "Erdely Tortenete".
The links you indicated talk about some victofali, but as allies to
Decebalus, not as the east german tribe who settled in the Spomes
valley in 168 AD:"Daciam Decibalo victo subegit, provincia trans
Danubium facta in his agris, quos nunc Taifali, Victoali et Tervingi
habent."
Therefore only my reading and interpretation remain correct.
The trick with valoke (if correct) in "Erdely Tortenete" should be
demonstrated with the primary data.
- Where is the primary data ?(photo ?)
- What connection do you see between an antique inscription and the
current Hungarian ? How do you guess it is an east german tribe ?
Did they have Trabi or Wartburg PKW's :)?
I take short vacation now. Have more inspiration by my return,
Sincerely,
D. Ciurchea
P.S. Theodosia and Theodosius are frequent names in the
thracian/greek world, including today. King Theodosie was educated
in Byzantium and beared the eastern name (and traditional thracian
clothes), until 410 I believe, when he was advised to adapt to the
West roman fashion, mainly because of his pants.
There are other examples also.
--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor at ...>
wrote:
>
> Dear D. Ciurchea
>
> Sorry for the words I used, but I don't like argumentation built
on
> errors.
> I repeat once again: there is no "Valoke" there.
> There is written "victovaloké", what in Hungarian means "of the
> Victovals", thus a genitive plural form.
> For your better understanding, I will analyse it now for you:
> Victoval (tribe name) + -ok (plural suffix) + -é (genitive suffix).
> To extract from here a word "Valoke" and to speculate on it is
thus
> obviously an enormous error.
> And who are the Victovals? (in Latin: Victovali, in Hugarian:
> Victovalok, where -ok is a plural suffix, like the Latin -i).
They
> are generally considered an eastern Germanic tribe, their name
being
> spelled also, in different sources, as Victoali, Victobali,
> Victophali, etc.
> As I already mentioned in a previous message, they are mentioned
by
> Roman authors like Eutropius (Breviarium ab urbe condita, Book
VIII:
> http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/eutropius8.html) and Paulus Diaconus
> (Historia Romana, Book VII:
> http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/pauldeacon/histrom8.shtml).
> If you make a Google search using the keyword "Victoali"
> or "Victophali" or "Victovali", you will find a lot about them.
> Regarding the Hungarian etymology for "Tauti", this concerns the
> modern place names, not Jordanes' "Tautis", which obviously could
not
> be derived from Hungarian (and you should know that I hate those
> Hungarians that would try, violating both science and common
sense,
> to make everything Hungarian; but this is valid also for the
Romanian
> equivalent too...)
> BTW: I searched through Jordanes' "Getica", both in Latin
> (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/iordanes1.html) and in English
> translation
>
(http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html),
> but I didn't find any "Tautis". Where did you get it from? Or it
is
> your invention? (I could expect this
)
>
> Now I return to a former message of you (no. 9073 of Aug. 3, 2006):
>
> << Let me explain the names by using the thracian connection:
>
> Thaurisind = Taurus sunt -I am a Bull ( both like in Latin)
> Taurismund = Taurus mânz - The colt of the Bull (Taurus like in
> Latin, mânz=colt laike in Dacian)
> Malasuentha=Mala sunta - The saint Mala - Sunta means saint
>
> Please note that Jordannes clearly specifies that "gepidae and gets
> are related" (XVII);
>
> In thracian the suffix -ic denotes a diminutive(conserved in
> Bulgarian : Balc-ic Romanian: Bas-ica, mam-ica, tat-ic and Turk:
> ishl-ic). (Small Balc=Balcic. Small Theodosie becomes Theodosic.
>
> Now, the monk in charge of manuscript copy observed the peculiar
> shape of S and assumed it is greek Rho and thus Theodosic became
> Theodoric. >> [end of quote]
>
> I hope that these are just jokes, or did you mean it seriously?
> Theodoric (as appears in Jordanes) or Theoderic (in other sources)
is
> mentioned in too many sources in order to suppose that his name is
> due to a singular missreading.
> For instance, a gold medallion of Theodoric the Great, discovered
at
> Sinigaglia, Italy in the 19th century, is inscribed "REX
THEODERICVS
> PIVS PRINCIS", with clear roman letters, there is obviously R,
> nothing ressembling to S; likewise, on a brick with the emblem of
> Theodoric is clearly written "THEODERIC" (see these at:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great). And he was not
the
> only to bear this name: the name was born also by 2 Visigothic
kings
> and (in the form Theuderic) by 4 Frankish kings.
> Another argument against your missreading theory:
> Theodoric the Great was such an hero for the Germanic world, that
his
> figure entered soon in the oral tradition of other Germanic
peoples
> (I underline: oral tradition, where missreading by a certain monk
is
> excluded). And he appears as Diotrich (modern German form:
Dietrich)
> in the Niebelungenlied and other Middle High German heroic poetry,
> and as Thjodrek in the Old Norse/Old Icelandic sagas. Everywhere
> with "R", not with "S"!!
> The second part of his name, -ric (from Gothic reiks "ruler, lord,
> prince") is very frequent in names of Gothic leaders/kings, such
as
> Ermanaric, Athanaric, Alaric, Athalaric, Euric, Roderic, etc.
> The first part of the name Theodo- or Theode- (from Gothic thiuda-
> "people, nation") also appears in other Gothic names, as in that
of
> Theodoric's father Theodemir (Jordanes: Thiudimer; German:
Dietmar:
> Old Norse: Thjodmar).
> "-suentha" in feminine names like Amalasuentha, Mathesuentha (in
> Jordanes) has nothing to do with "saint": it is the Gothic
adjective
> swintha, the feminine form of swinths "strong, powerful".
> Regarding Jordanes' specification that "gepidae and gets are
related"
> (Getae Gepidasque sint parentes), this means only that the Gepidae
> are related to the Goths. It is obvious for everybody that
Jordanes
> used the words Getae and Gothi interchangeably, starting from the
> phonetic ressemblance of the two words and therefore mixing the
> histories of two different peoples. This is excusable and
> understandable for the 6th century, but not for the 21st century,
I
> think!
> You should know that some years ago two fellows from India showed
up
> on this list, trying to convince us all that the Goths, the Gets,
the
> Jutes (who named the Jutland paeninsula) and all others with
similar
> sounding names are nothing but Jats (an Indian ethnic group or
> caste). But, believe me, even their argumentation looked more
> serious, more scientific-like, than yours.
> Regarding the article indicated by you
> (http://www.gandirea.ro/linguistic_history_errors.php), please see
> the comments of David Klitz and Konrad Oddsson, to which I
subscribe
> 100%.
> Let me take only one sentence:
> << Showing clearly that there was no Gothic literary language,
i.e. a
> normed lan¬guage, having a definite, system of rules and
conventions,
> Wulfila could not trans¬late the Bible in Gothic and, in fact, he
> translated it in "Wulfila's language", a lan¬guage unknown up to
that
> moment and never repeated since. >>
> This assertion is a monument of stupidity (or, even worse, of
> intentional distortion of the reality). The very same language
> appears also in Skeireins and in the well-known Gothic minor texts
> (deeds of Naples and Arezzo, Vienna manuscript, Gothic calendar
> fragments) and is also quoted as a _spoken_ language in "De
conviviis
> barbaris" ("Inter eils Goticum scapiamatziaiadrincan non audet
> quisquam dignos educere versus.")
> It would be much more to add, but I think it is enough for now.
>
> Francisc
>
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Francisc,
> > Thank you for reading the indicated link. Now the question :
what
> > tribe is this ? Why Valoke is not spelled ? Why german ?
> >
> > "In conclusion, all the reasonings about "Victo Valoke - The
Romans
> > vainquished the Wallachians" are just aberrations caused by
reading
> > a Hungarian text without knowing the language.".
> >
> > Sorry, my geography, interpretation and reading was correct. No
> > conclusions, mister, please.
> >
> > I believe I have pointed out the precarity of the data
concerning
> > the presence of Germans in Transylvania in 168 AD and the
> > unreliability of the Hungarian interpretations on archeological
> > finds in Transylvania.
> >
> > Why are these guys mistyfing data and inventing german tribes
for
> > every event which actually does not regard or involve germans at
> > all ? :):)
> >
> > I mostly love your ethymology of "Tauti" of Jordannes from
> Hungarian.
> >
> > Concerning the stream of the Romanian linguists, there is no
> > established line to rely on. There is no God in science anyway.
> > Please refer for a good article on that at:
> > http://www.gandirea.ro/linguistic_history_errors.php
> >
>
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