"Victovaloke" (was: Re: Name of the Goths)

[Francisc Czobor]

I begin to become bored by this discussion, that seems to be off-
topic.

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea at ...> wrote:
>
> Dear Francisc, 
> 
> I sincerely regret that you continue to excuse or arrange the 
> mistifications in "Erdely Tortenete". 
> 

I have read through that famous "Erdély Története" (History of 
Transylvania) and I don't agree with all that they wrote there, but 
this is not the subject here (and is has nothing to do with the 
Gothic list). But the Victofali existed independent of the "Erdély 
Története".

> The links you indicated talk about some victofali, but as allies to 
> Decebalus, not as the east german tribe who settled in the Spomes 
> valley in 168 AD:"Daciam Decibalo victo subegit, provincia trans 
> Danubium facta in his agris, quos nunc Taifali, Victoali et 
Tervingi 
> habent." 
> 

This is from Eutropius (Breviarium Historiae Romanae VIII/2).
But your interpretation denote either mistification or an attempt to 
translate a Latin text without knowing Latin. The correct translation 
of this phrase is:
"he subdued Dacia by the overthrow of Decebalus, and formed a 
province beyond the Danube, in that territory which the Thaiphali, 
Victoali, and Theruingi now occupy"
(http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/eutropius/trans8.html)
"now" (nunc) means in Eutropius' time, who lived in the 4th century.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius)
Thus your interpretation that the Victofali were allies of Decebalus 
(who died in 106) is the real mistification.

> Therefore only my reading and interpretation remain correct.
> 
> The trick with valoke (if correct) in "Erdely Tortenete" should be 
> demonstrated with the primary data. 
> 

There is no trick there, it is just a grammatical form. I thought I 
explained it clearly, but you didn't understand anything. Let me 
explain it other way: "Victovaloké" is the genitive plural of 
Victoval, exactly like it would be in Romanian "Victovalilor". Thus 
to extract from "Victovaloké" a tribe name "Valoke" is exactly the 
same error as extracting a tribe name "Valilor" from "Victovalilor".
Thus any interpretation like "Victo Valoke = Romans vainquished the 
Waloks" is totally aberrant.

> - Where is the primary data ?(photo ?) 
> - What connection do you see between an antique inscription and the 
> current Hungarian ? How do you guess it is an east german tribe ? 
> Did they have Trabi or Wartburg PKW's :)?
> 

It is not MY interpretation that it is an east Germanic tribe 
(Germanic, not German! In Hungarian, "germán" means "Germanic"; the 
Hungarian word for "German" is "német"!! Or maybe you don't 
undersatnd the difference between "Germanic" and "German", making any 
further discussion useless). The Germanic character of the Victoali 
is asserted by first-line historians, already by Edward Gibbon (The 
History of  the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Vol. 1, 1776):
"At a later stage, when the Sarmatians made common cause with the 
Germans, it was called the Bellum Germanicum Sarmaticum. The Romans 
took the field in 167, and hostilities lasted, with a short interval 
of peace, till the accession of Commodus, 180. The following German 
peoples took part in it: — Marcomanni, Quadi, Narisci, Victovali, 
Hermunduri, Vandals, Buri" (footnote no. 83)
(http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/HTML.php?recordID=0214.01)
Everywhere where I read about the Victoali, they are presented as a 
Germanic (sometimes more precisely: Eastern-Germanic) people, being 
regarded by some as a branch of the Vandals.
Information on the Internet about the Germanic character of the 
Victoali:
http://www.obib.de/Schriften/AlteSchriften/alte_schriften.php?
Germanen/Ostgermanen.html~Text
(The "Viktovalen" are enumerated among the Eastern Germanic, as a 
branch of the Vandals)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_germanischen_St%C3%A4mme
(The "Viktofalen" enumerated among Western Germanic tribes)
http://encyclopedie-
de.snyke.com/articles/liste_der_germanischen_stamme.html
(idem)


> I take short vacation now. Have more inspiration by my return,
> Sincerely,
> D. Ciurchea
> 
> P.S. Theodosia and Theodosius are frequent names in the 
> thracian/greek world, including today. King Theodosie was educated 
> in Byzantium and beared the eastern name (and traditional thracian 
> clothes), until 410 I believe, when he was advised to adapt to the 
> West roman fashion, mainly because of his pants.
> 

Who is this "King Theodosie"? Do you mean Theodoric the Great (454-
526), the King of the Ostrogoths? But this is a different person than 
your "King Theodosie" who beared pants until 410 (i.e 44 years before 
the birth of Theodoric the Great)

> There are other examples also.
> 

What examples??

Francisc 







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