About Villemann og Magnhild

[Rydwlf]

Hails Ualarauans,
   
  Thank you for your comments and corrections! It's a nice way to learn this one :)
   
  >I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing. 
>If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do. 
>If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.

  Unfortunately, I don't know either what the name means in Norwegian... I have checked in dictionaries and 'vill' may be "wild, impetuous, savage". There is even 'villmann' meaning "savage". And then there is the verb 'ville' meaning "want, want to, will, wish". Would it be something like "Wild/Brave Man" or on the other hand "Willing Man"? In the end, one may say that both meanings are related somehow. Anyway I see that you have considered both possibilities. I've been looking for some analysis on the song (and the names on it) on the net but I've found none (at least in English). Until I find some, or get the opinion from some Norwegian friend, we can leave the two versions as possible.

  >Magnhild is most likely Go. *Maginahildi F.-jo (gen. Maginahildjos)
   
  I agree. Thank you for that also. 
   
  >> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei gulthaharpon slahan -
>There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere 
>infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive), lit. "he wished that he 
>would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual 
>with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of 
>the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda 
>slahan..., I think.
   
  You're right again. Let's make it  'tharei wilda gulthaharpon slahan'-
  About using 'slahan' for 'playing', I use it as a substitute, more with the meaning of "hit, beat" the harp's strings (akin to Norwegian, Danish and Swedish "slå" and Icelandic "slá"). I fear that 'swiglon' had a meaning too associated with instruments like pipes or flutes and wouldn't fit with playing a harp, but I'm totally guessing here...
   
  >We've had recently a nice discussion on both these lexemes when 
>translating Hávamál into Gothic at Theudiskon. Proceeding from known 
>elder-runic examples a construction Go. *awi giban was proposed in the 
>sense "to give auspices". I'd also prefer Go. stafs for "runic letter" 
>rather than runa attested solely as "secret", "mystery" (though I 
>found myself in a minority with this opinion over there :). *Runastafs 
>would be a fine compromise, I think.
   
  Yes, I've seen a lot of movement in Theudiskon lately, and I wish I can dig on it soon :)
  About the attested meaning of 'runa', I know what you mean. Basing on the attested meaning we should circumscribe only to the "secret, mystery" meaning. I don't want to add more discussion to the one that you mention, specially being myself not an expert on Gothic... but anyway I think that maybe I'm also on the majority here, not sure :) Why? If the corpus contained a word meaning "rune" in the Germanic sense (which is impossible), and it was translated into Gothic as "runa", there would be no doubts. We all know it's not like this. I base then on the relationship of runes with secret knowledge, magic power, key to mysteries, etc, common in the Germanic cultures. Then I can imagine Wulfila translating Greek "mystery" or "secret" for "runa" so the Goths could immediately think in that meaning of something hidden (with a mythical/religious/mysterious taint). I beg Wulfila's and the scholar's pardon for my uneducated digression here :)
   
  Anyway, not having any solid proof for one option or the other, I also think that *Runastafs 
is a nice compromise :)
   
  >An adverb of handugs would probably look like *handugo (no examples 
>though). The word could have had a broader meaning than that is 
>attested, cf. OCSl loanword xondogú "skillful", "experienced" < Go. 
>handugs.
   
  Yes, I based in Wright's to form the adverb, but thank you for that interesting word formation. 
  It's also interesting the formation of the 'mildiþa' nomen abstractum. Thank you for correcting me about the dative... I thought I had done that but I see I forgot to decline :) About the alliteration, it's a feature of the poem, like rhythm, that I'd love to keep in the translation, but it's proven so hard that by the moment I'll be just happy having the right semantics and syntax... maybe on a later stage I have the guts (and knowledge) to try an alliterative version :) The choice of 'snutrei' is a good one.
   
  >Not intending to dispute with J.R.R., I daresay he has not purely 
>invented *groneis but reconstructed it after the other Old Germanic 
>languages. And I guess he would agree that a dat. sg. masc. of groneis 
>be gronjamma. 
   
  Yes, of course! I used the wrong word ('invented') here. It's a consequence of writing on a rush and late at night :) I beg my pardon to the Professor's memory! Also I put the dative form wrong... rats!
   
  >Is it separated from þut-haurn? Afaik there are other interpretations 
>of this element beside "loud". How about *hluþs "loud" with a long 
>[u:], after West Germanic?
   
  Yes and thus I should maybe had marked it as a reconstruction. Your suggestion about *hluþs is a good one methinks.
   
  Your reference of Photius' work is utterly interesting! Thank you very much for that. I think such an intention from Olympiodorus or other, similar as the ones you mention, towards their public, is very possible. Go./Vand. *trull N.-a, pl. trulla is too delicious and plausible for me to reject it :)
   
  >Þan is not used initially. Af governs dative. Maybe, þanuh usstaig 
>(urrais, usstoþ) þata trull (sa *trulla M.-an?) [iup] us diupistamma 
>saiwa (us diupein saiwis)?

>I guess a single finite verb 3rd pers. sg. would be enough. For 
>instance, auhjoþ in bairgahein (bairga[m], fairgunja[m]) jah kriustiþ 
>in milhmam [milhmin] (or: in himina). The verbs are something to think 
>about.

  I agree with both your suggestions. I favour "Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis" over the others - for the 12th verse, auhjoþ in bairgam jah kriustiþ in milhmam would do nicely, although it's true that maybe there are better chances for this verse.
  
>ut is an adverb, not a preposition, in Gothic, afaik. Use better us + 
>dat.

  Yep! Another silly mistake. I think I had the Norwegian text too present in my head...
   
  About the version used as a basis of my translation, it is the one that I have found more popularized in modern music; for example the folk singer Rita Eriksen has one version in her album "Tideland", and it's also somehow popular in the metal genre, since bands as the German medieval reconstrucionists In Extremo and the Norwegian band Storm have both released covers of this folk tunes in their albums. It is possible that one of these artists (probably Storm being Norwegian and having their album released in 1994 or so) had chosen one of the versions for any reason and then the other bands had covered it.
   
  Let me thank you again for your comprehensive and illustrating analysis!
   
  Cheers,
   
  Rydwlf.
  
>Summing up some suggestions made above
> 1. Villemann went to the river -
> Wiljamanna (Wilþi- hic et passim) galaiþ du ahvai -
> 2. to the most beautiful of all linden -
> [qam at] skaunistamma allaize lindabagme -
> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -
> þarei wilda gulþaharpon slahan (?)-
> 4. Because the runes didn't augur well -
> unte (runa)stabeis awi ni gebun -
> 5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -
> gaiddja [nu] Wiljamanna [du] standan wiþra rinnon (I'm not sure I 
understand)-
> 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -
> handugo lista slahan (?) þo gulþaharpon –
> 7. He played it gently, he played it clever -
> þo (sc. þo harpon) sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ snutrein -
> 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -
> fugls anaqal (???) ana gronjamma bagma
> 9. He played it gently, he played it loud -
> þo sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ hludein (?) -
> 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -
> sloh Maginahildja [ut] us trullis armam -
> 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -
> Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis -
> 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -
> [fairweitei þize iupa qiþanane] -
> 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -
> þanuh-þan sloh þo harpon ...(?)
> 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.
> jah ... maht [ut] us trullis arma.

> > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this
> song in
> 
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.htm
l
> > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway
   
  ualarauans <ualarauans at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Hails Rydwlf,

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Rydwlf wrote:
>
> 1. Villemann went to the river - Villemann(a) iddja (is) at 
ahvái.
> I wonder what a good translation for the names Villemann and 
Magnhild would
> be...

I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing. 
If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do. 
If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilþimanna.

Magnhild is most likely Go. *Maginahildi F.-jo (gen. Maginahildjos)

> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei 
gulthaharpon slahan -
> I have used the construction "wiljan ei" as it appears in some 
places of > the
> corpus, meaning "want to".

There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere 
infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive), lit. "he wished that he 
would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual 
with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of 
the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda 
slahan..., I think.

> 4. Because the runes didn't augur well - unte runos ni brahtedun 
awi -
> After considering using the verbes gahaitan, fauragahaitan used 
as "promise",
> I have decided using a construction of the type "because the runes 
didn't bring
> luck". For "luck" I have used *awi, sn. and for "rune", runa, sf. 
although maybe
> runastafs, sm. would be more correct.

We've had recently a nice discussion on both these lexemes when 
translating Hávamál into Gothic at Theudiskon. Proceeding from known 
elder-runic examples a construction Go. *awi giban was proposed in the 
sense "to give auspices". I'd also prefer Go. stafs for "runic letter" 
rather than runa attested solely as "secret", "mystery" (though I 
found myself in a minority with this opinion over there :). *Runastafs 
would be a fine compromise, I think.

> 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly - saruba (hadugba?) 
mahta (is)
> slahan gulthaharpon
> Here I have formed the adverb saruba from #sarus, skillfull. 
Maybe it's more
> convenient to use handugba from handugs, clever, wise.

An adverb of handugs would probably look like *handugo (no examples 
though). The word could have had a broader meaning than that is 
attested, cf. OCSl loanword xondogú "skillful", "experienced" < Go. 
handugs.

> I keep using slahan to
> mean hit in the sense of playing the harp by hitting the 
strings. "Is" would be
> emphatic and is used only for rhythmic purposes (although at this 
stage the
> whole translation is not very precise at rhythm).
> 
> 7. He played it gently, he played it clever - ita sloh mith ---, 
ita sloh mith
> handugei.
> I have used the structure "he played it with gentleness, he 
played it with
> cleverness" which is more akin to the original "han leika med lente, 
han leika
> med list". Another option for my translation would be using the 
subject instead
> of the object as I do, that is, using "is" instead of "ita". Anyway, 
I need a
> noun for "gentleness" or something similar. I have tried deriving a 
name from
> •lintheis, gentle, nice, soft: would it be "•linthei"? 

There's an adjective mildeis meaning smth like that. A derived nomen 
abstractum is mildiþa, an adverb to be reconstructed *mildjo or 
*mildjaba. Also, it's dative after miþ, so if you like to keep this 
way of saying you should probably put it miþ mildiþai. Note that 
leika:lente:list do alliterate in the original. To say 'laikan miþ 
listim (attested pl.)' would mean a quite different thing in Gothic, 
though.

> Also, for "cleverness", I
> have derived "handugei" from handugs, clever, wise.

If you use handugo above for "skillfully", maybe it's better to go 
with a synonym here, e.g. snutrei?

> 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree - fugls anaqal (?) ana 
gronamma
> bagma.
> Used the past form of *anaqilan, sv.IV, become calm. Also the !
groneis
> neologism invented by J.R.R.Tolkien, if I am not wrong.

Not intending to dispute with J.R.R., I daresay he has not purely 
invented *groneis but reconstructed it after the other Old Germanic 
languages. And I guess he would agree that a dat. sg. masc. of groneis 
be gronjamma. 

> 9. He played it gently, he played it loud - ita sloh mith --- , 
ita sloh mith
> thuta (?)-
> Same as above concerning "softness". I have used *thuts 
for "loudness".

Is it separated from þut-haurn? Afaik there are other interpretations 
of this element beside "loud". How about *hluþs "loud" with a long 
[u:], after West Germanic?

> 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll - sloh 
(is) Magnhild
> ut trolis arma -
> A risky one. First, I replicate a syntactic structure found both 
in modern
> English and Norwegian that I'm not sure I have the "right" to use in 
Gothic. The
> original verse goes "Han leika Magnhild av nykkens arm" that can be 
roughly
> translated as "He played Magnhild out of the monster's arm". My 
second 'big one'
> is the neologism trols, which I consider particular risky :) I wait 
for your
> comments.

Photius' "Bibliotheca" contains an abstract of a longer work made by 
Olympiodorus of Thebes, pertaining to years 407-425. In 60b 31-34 we 
read: hOTI hOI OUANDALOI TOUS GOTQOUS TROULOUS KALOUSI DIA TO LIMWi 
PIEZOMENOUS AUTOUS TROULAN SITOU PARA TWN OUANDALWN AGORAZEIN hENOS 
CRUSINOU, hH DE TROULA OUDE TRITON XESTOU CWREI "The Vandals call the 
Goths TROULOI ("Truls"), because when [once] starving they (the Goths) 
bought from the Vandals a TROULA (basinful) of corn for the price of 
one golden coin, but the TROULA isn't equal to [even] a third of a 
XESTHS". XESTHS, Lat. sextarius is a measure = ca 0,5 lt. We know 
there was no great love between the Goths and the Vandals, and the 
latter were usually the suffering part in their mutual conflicts. They 
could easily have been telling some mocking jests and calling scornful 
names at their more successful cousins, but very unlikely they'd have 
used Greek words, speaking themselves the same tongue as the Goths. 
So, assertions were made (lacking the books to cite references, sorry) 
that the Vandals called the Goths the same name as is ON troll
"monster", "stupid giant". It could be Go./Vand. *trull N.-a, pl. 
trulla. The rest of the story was apparently composed by some Greek 
author, maybe Olympiodorus himself, to give the name some sense for 
the reading late-Roman public. Like Gipedes in Isidor of Seville, you 
know.

> I understand it is difficult to know if the Goths had an equivalent 
to
> the Nordic "troll", and if so, which was the word they might use (I 
know this
> topic may have been covered in any of the books that some of the 
members of this
> list has published, if it's so please tell! Another reason to order 
them
> -blush-)
> 
> 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -Than thar 
usstod trol
> af diupei sáiwis -
> Let me remark how close this one sounds to the original "Men daa 
steig trolli
> upp or djupaste sjoe".

Þan is not used initially. Af governs dative. Maybe, þanuh usstaig 
(urrais, usstoþ) þata trull (sa *trulla M.-an?) [iup] us diupistamma 
saiwa (us diupein saiwis)?

> 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds - swogs 
in báirgam
> jah theihvo in milham -
> The original says "Det gjalla i berg of det runga i sky". That 
is, the
> impersonal is used. My translation would go simply "noise in the 
mountains and
> thunder in the clouds". It is ok this way for me, but I'd like to 
know any
> suggestion of how to do the impersonal, be it in a "there is" 
construction. I
> have looked for it but hadn't had the time to search deeper.

I guess a single finite verb 3rd pers. sg. would be enough. For 
instance, auhjoþ in bairgahein (bairga[m], fairgunja[m]) jah kriustiþ 
in milhmam [milhmin] (or: in himina). The verbs are something to think 
about.

> 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght - than 
sloh (is)
> harpo grimmithba ana allái motha.
> The original says "Daa slo han si harpa til bonns i sin harm". My 
translation
> for that would be "Then played he his harp until 'bonns' in his 
anger". So I
> have used the •grimmitha, sf. as "fury" in the construction ana 
allái "in
> all...", cf. ana allái náuthái, "in all our affliction", suggested 
by Llama's
> dictionary.
> 
> 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power - jah usnam 
swinthein ut
> trolis arm.
> 
> Also a parallel of the original "og utvinner krafti av trollenes 
arm".

ut is an adverb, not a preposition, in Gothic, afaik. Use better us + 
dat.

Summing up some suggestions made above

> 1. Villemann went to the river -
> Wiljamanna (Wilþi- hic et passim) galaiþ du ahvai -
> 2. to the most beautiful of all linden -
> [qam at] skaunistamma allaize lindabagme -
> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -
> þarei wilda gulþaharpon slahan (?)-
> 4. Because the runes didn't augur well -
> unte (runa)stabeis awi ni gebun -
> 5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -
> gaiddja [nu] Wiljamanna [du] standan wiþra rinnon (I'm not sure I 
understand)-
> 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -
> handugo lista slahan (?) þo gulþaharpon –
> 7. He played it gently, he played it clever -
> þo (sc. þo harpon) sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ snutrein -
> 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -
> fugls anaqal (???) ana gronjamma bagma
> 9. He played it gently, he played it loud -
> þo sloh miþ mildiþai, þo sloh miþ hludein (?) -
> 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -
> sloh Maginahildja [ut] us trullis armam -
> 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -
> Þanuh usstaig þata trull us diupein saiwis -
> 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -
> [fairweitei þize iupa qiþanane] -
> 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -
> þanuh-þan sloh þo harpon ...(?)
> 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.
> jah ... maht [ut] us trullis arma.

> > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this
> song in
> 
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.htm
l
> > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway)

96 variations, wow! Which was your vorlage?

Ualarauans



You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to . 
Yahoo! Groups Links





 
---------------------------------
Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/gothic-l/attachments/20061203/eb6c4059/attachment.htm>