MEDOS, *midus? + neologisms

[llama_nom]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans at ...> wrote:

> Excuse my re-asking, but I didn't get it clear yet. Does d'Alquen 
> (and you) suggest that Wulfila could have written e.g. 
> *Barthulumius, *Pitrus, *apustulus, *diakunus etc. (cf. aggilus, not 
> *aggelus, that stayed unchanged, perhaps out of folk-etymologic 
> reasons)? Or maybe *Bar-thu-lo-mjus (Ma-ki-do-nja), with the primary 
> accent on the first and the secondary on the third syllable, the 
> latter getting prolonged? The second and the fourth were then 
> unstressed and short and reduced to some extent (therefore -nja not 
> *-nia?) -? Perhaps you explained that already, sorry for my obtusity.

That's right: part d'Alquen's theory was that the bible was translated
originally by Wulfila into a dialect that had no phonemic distinction
/i/ versus /E/, and therefore wrote *Pitrus, *apustulus, *pintekuste,
etc.  He suggested that loanwords like 'aggilus' could have been
survivals from this time, which became naturalised in Gothic, and thus
more or less escaped the effects of later revisions carried out in
Ostrogothic Italy by scholars who spoke a dialect in which /E/ and /i/
had become phonemically distinct.  Things get a bit complicated with
unstressed vowels, since he also proposes that all stressed vowels
were shortened and that unstressed /O/ and /u/ had fallen together in
Italian Ostrogothic, thus in his opinion 'apaustaulus' and
'apaustulus' were mere spelling variants, the first one being favoured
in the revision for the sake of consistency to bring it into line with
Greek and Latin versions.

I'm not sure whether he would reconstruct *Barþulomjus or a less
naturalised looking *Barþulumi(j)us.  Makidonja, not being a
specifically Christian word, may well have already been taken into
Gothic by word-of-mouth before the time of the bible translation, and
already naturalised in accordance with native stress patterns.  I'm
afraid just don't know whether scholarly/literary loans would be
subject to this onia > o:nja change too.

Do I believe in this theory?  Well, Richard d'Alquen's theory depends
more on explanatory power than evidence, for the most part, although
personal names recorded in Latin and loanwords into Romance languages
do suggest that he's right about the monophthongisation of /ai/ and
/au/ in Ostrogothic, and the survival of these diphthongs in
Visigothic.  So I'm convinced by that part.  The rest: it's ingenious
and neat, but I'm keeping an open mind about it for now.  The least
convincing thing for me is the falling together of unstressed /u/ and
/O/ and shortening of unstressed vowels.  It's possible, but I'm not
sure it's necessary to assume this.  D'Alquen explains the fact that
the confusion of 'u' and 'au' is confined to the u-stem nouns by
arguing that the strength of spelling traditions kept the distinction
in verbal forms because there were no verbal inflections that were
distinguished solely by whether they contained 'u' or 'au'.  But
against this, I would point to the confusion of 'e' and 'ei', which
isn't confined to word forms where 'e' and 'ei' alternated in
inflections.  So I still prefer the usual analogical explanation of
the 'au' : 'u' confusion in u-stem nouns.


> 
> > 
> > Alternatively for
> > "etymology" how about *waurde urrunseis, fi.pl., *waurdis urruns,
> > fi.sg.?  Or as a compound: waurda-urruns.  I think a more literal
> > calque on Greek might be something like *sunja-waurdei, but then 
> the
> > meaning isn't so tranparent and it perhaps carries the baggage of
> > outmoded ideas about etymology demonstrating the 'true' meaning.  
> For
> > syllable, we could calque Icelandic 'samstafa' as Go. *sama-stabo,
> > feminine on-stem.  The Icelandic term is used in the 12th c. First
> > Grammatical treatise, which might be a good place to raid for 
> ideas:
> > 
> > raddarstafr "vowel"
> > hljóðstafr "vowel"
> > samhljóðandi "consonant"
> > samhljóð "consonant"
> > 
> > These would give Go. neologisms: *razdos stafs, mi; *hliuda-stafs,
> > mi.; *sama-hliudands, mc.; *sama-hliuþ, na.  And they have the 
> added
> > advantage that if we forget what they mean we can always look them 
> up
> > in an Old Norse dictionary!
> > 
> 
> That's a great advantage indeed!:) Otherwise it can prove that 
> everybody would create a daily NGo. language of his own and, when 
> we'll one day experience an International Congress of Neo-Gothic 
> Enthusiasts (smile) we will not understand a word except Bible 
> quotes!
> 
> Waila mis in niujawaurdjam theinaim (no politeness form -?) thaim 
> afar galeikja fairnjaizos razdos Naurthamanne gaskapanam galeikaida, 
> ith allaize batist in `hliudastaba' – hva ist auk bi wistai 
> niba "elementum uocis" swe Rumoneis thata qetheina! Jabai 
> swikunthaize waurde (jah waurte) thatainei brukjan wildedeima (sumai 
> bokarje – jah Wiljahilms Streidabairgs ains ist ize - tuzwerjand 
> ei `hliuth' bi sunjai in bokom anakunnaidau), niu jah *stibnastafs 
> mahteigs wesi (reimand sik ba waurda swa gatemiba!)? Kantu arniba 
> *hliuda- gastibnjan?
> 
> I like your ON based neologisms, especially `hliudastafs' 
> for "vowel", its pattern "vocal element" being quite to the point, 
> in my opinion. Sure it's hliuda- not hliutha-? To use only attested 
> stems (and some doubt the reading `hliuth' you know), could it also 
> be *stibnastafs (they alliterate to each other)?


Nah, I don't think we need to be polite ;)  Plural forms are used
sometimes in Old Norse for royalty, including adjectives even; I'm not
sure how ancient this is.  But apart from that, as far as I know,
there was no general plural of respect.

Yes, I recall Gerhard Köbler mentions *hliuþ being a mistaken reading
too.  But still it's a convenient word to reconstruct.  Good point
about the medial consonant.  The Norse form could be from either
earlier /þ/ or /ð/.  I was probably thinking of German 'Laut', but
that's a different word with a different grade of vowel, MHG lût.  If
everything was regular, I think the stressed iu-grade ought to have an
unvoiced /þ/ after it, so for want of any other evidence 'hliuþa-'
might be better.  There's OE 'hléoþor', which would give Go. *hliuþr,
na.  OHG had feminine 'hlûtî' and hlûta'.  As a general rule, it might
be a good idea, when in doubt, to reconstruct according to either
Norse or OHG forms where these differ from Ingvaeonic ones, as Gothic
seems to agree with its nearer Germanic neighbours on certain points [
http://www.oe.eclipse.co.uk/nom/verner.htm ].  But then *hliuþr looks
really nice, and unambiguous, and the -r suffix does exist in Gothic,
so there's nothing improbable about it.


> > 
> > > Thanks again for your mark. But warning, you've encouraged me to
> > > proceed with such a practice, so you'll have to share the
> > > responsibility -:) (remember the LoTR "Two Towers" movie "- Don't
> > > talk to it, Merry! Don't encourage it!")
> > 
> > 
> > Hoooom ;)
> > 
> 
> Gamaudida mik thata fraihnan izwis, jau raihtaba thiudanamna 
> bisitande Gutthiudos aftragasatjau: *Antjos = lateinisko Antes/Anti 
> (at Iaurdanes aupuskulau) > Sini-Agglisko _ent_ "manna mikils" > 
> Niuja-Agglisko _Ent_ "Ent" (allis than ni swa niuja-, unte af J.R.R. 
> anaqiwith warth (?)). Jah nithjos ize (?) *Allanos = lat. Alani 
> (hvaruh in meljandam jainaizos aldais). Duhve thata -l- thata 
> twifaltho? Awi mis qithaith ana thammei bigat thatei sokjands was 
> lagga hveila – waurdabokos razdos afarane ize thize ana Kawkasaus 
> bairgahein bauandane. In spillam jah saggwim  seinaim und hina dag 
> attam ize liuthond swe Allaettae (ainarathjo Allon). Thata -ll- us 
> airizin –lj- jath-thata us –rj- afar garaideinim razdos ize haband. 
> Insaihvaima du namin Hune thatei in Rumonim thata withrawairtho swe 
> Hunni haitith.
> 
> It reminded me to ask you if the following reconstructions of the 
> ethnonyms of the Goths' neighbors are correct: *Antjos M. –ja 
> Pl. "Antes", "Anti" in Jordanes' Getica > OE ent "giant" > R.J.J. 
> Tolkien's "Ent"? And their cognates (?) Alans - *Allanos M. –a Pl. 
> (as Alani passim in Lat. sources of that age). You may wonder why I 
> geminate the -l-. Congratulate me as I finally found what I was 
> looking for a long time – a vocabulary of the language of the Ossets 
> who descended (linguistically) from actual Alans and who now live in 
> Caucasus (there is Russia's federal republic of "North Ossetia – 
> Alania" (sic!) over there). So, in their legends they are said to 
> mention the people of "Allaettae" (singular "Allon") as their 
> forefathers, and that is commonly held to be a regular down-form of 
> the name (with –ll- < -ly- < -ry-). An opposite situation is seen in 
> Go. *Huneis vs. Lat. Hunni.


Well, I don't know any Ossetian, so I'd better congratulate and defer
to your finally found vocabulary.  In his Old English Grammar,
paragraph 602, Alistair Campbell lists OE 'ent' as an i-stem.  Of
course, there was a lot of confusion among the OE declensions, but two
arguments in favour of its belonging to this declension originally are
(1) the tendency is for OE i-stems to be assimilated to the a-stem
declension, rather than the reverse; (2) a lot of tribal names in Old
English and Old Norse follown the i-declension.  Bit of a long shot,
but could there be clue as to the original declension in the form of
the Baviarian cognate?


> 
> > 
> > > Anthar waurd bi thatei bokarjos mith sis misso ni mins
> > > thrasabalthaba haifstjand, hvatharaizos Hunithiudo aigin wesi, 
> ist
> > > MEDOS in Priskaus Istaurjai (Fr. 8, II) – bistugqun bi soknai
> > > galeikai, andizuh gutiskamma (*midus) aiththau winithiskamma 
> (*medu)
> > > gamotidedeina. Aina gaskaidein habam af *strawai ei *midus jah in
> > > razdom Gutane gakunjaim bigitada, tharei samaleiko dragk
> > > wodawagjando ustaikneith. Hva ahjaith bi tho sakjon, Gamathljans
> > > swerans? Jabai gutisk ist, in hvis ni swe *MIDOS gamelith warth?
> > >
> > > Another word that provoked a no less hot discussion among
> > > specialists, to whether language – Gothic or Slavic – it could be
> > > attributed, is hO MEDOS in Priscus' Historia (loc. cit.). The 
> only
> > > difference from *strava question is that we have this word for an
> > > alcoholic beverage attested if not in Gothic then in other 
> Germanic
> > > languages (ON mjoedhr, OE meodu etc). Slavic has *medu (reduced -
> u).
> > > The phonetic difficulty here (where can we get through without 
> such
> > > difficulties?) is that, if being Gothic, it should have been most
> > > probably written down as *MIDOS (< Go. *midus). What do you 
> think?
> > 
> > 
> > Fairweit haba hausjan hva þai in unsis slabiskans razdafrastjos bi
> > þata qiþaina, iþ ni man þata unmahteig wisan, þatei in sumaize 
> gutane
> > razdom /i/ jah /e/ missaleikai gawesun (jah samaleiko /u/ jah /o/),
> > jah afar þatei in anþaraim samaþ gadrusun.  Bair samana Gu. hilms,
> > FKSlab. SlemU--jabai þata leihvawaurd us austragairmaniskon bi 
> sunjai
> > ist--jah managa waurda kreimagutiska: sevene, schester, regnen; 
> goltz,
> > boga, *schnos (schuos).
> > 
> > I'm be curious to hear what the Slavicists among us will have to 
> say
> > on this matter, but I don't think it's impossible that /i/ and /e/
> > (and likewise /u/ and /o/) remained distinct in some 'Gothic' 
> dialects
> > after they had fallen together in others.  Compare Go. hilms, OCSl.
> > SlemU "helmet"--if that is in fact a loanword from East Germanic--
> also
> > many words from Crimean Gothic: sevene, schester, regnen; goltz, 
> boga,
> > *schnos (schuos).
> > 
> 
> Nunu hugjis ei thata waurd gutisk sijai? Sa sama Priskus (Fr. 8, 
> III, 46.5-10) insaht gamelida, thoei wairtha rahnja ei gateihau 
> izwis:
> Blandiggos auk wisandans [Skwthjus] alja swesai barbariskai razdai 
> aljanond andizuh tho Hune aiththau tho Gutane aiththau jah tho 
> Walhe, swa managaim ize swe mith Rumonim blandains [ist?], jan-ni 
> rathaba hvashun ize krekiskoth razdai niba thizei gatauhun 
> frahunthana af thizai faur marein Thrakjai jah Illwridai.


managai...blandanai sind?


> 
> Thanuh than krekisko swa sik habaith:
> XYNKLYDES GAR ONTES [hOI SKYQAI] PROS TH SFETERA BARBARW GLWSSH 
> ZHLOUSIN H THN OUNNWN H THN GOTQWN H KAI THN AUSONIWN, hOSOIS AUTWN 
> PROS RWMAIOUS EPIMIXIA; KAI OU RADIWS TIS SFWN ELLHNIZEI TH FWNH, 
> PLHN hWN APHGAGON AICMALWTWN APO THS QRAKIAS KAI ILLYRIDOS PARALOU.
> 
> So you think the word is Gothic? The same Priscus (vide supra) has 
> an interesting passage which I guess might be of interest for our 
> members in the context of the topic discussed. I made an attempt to 
> translate it from Greek into Gothic trying to imitate Wulfilan style 
> (as much as I know it of course, and that's not really much at all). 
> It is followed by the Greek original so that you could compare and 
> perhaps tell your opinion? I hope I transliterated it correctly, and 
> best thanks to Gerhard Koebler for his Griechisch-Gotisches 
> Woerterbuch. The English version (mine) is here:
> Being of mixed origin (so XYNKLYDES are commented upon, Gothic has a 
> neologism *blandiggos M. -a Pl. - vlrvns) [the Scythes] beside their 
> own barbaric language are eager [to learn] the [language] of the 
> Huns or of the Goths or of the Italics (Greek AUSONIOI, Go. 
> *Walhos), those of them who are mixed (or: have dealings) with 
> Romans; and nobody of them speaks Greek freely, except those whom 
> they have driven captive from the coastline of Thracia and Illyris.
> 
> > 
> > >
> > > P.S. How you like `dragk wodawagjando' for "alcoholic beverage"
> > > (Skalda-MJOEDHR, ODH-rerir). If it is too strong an expression,
> > > could it be simply `dragk inwagjando (ahman)'?
> > > With `gamathljans' I mean "participants of the same `mathl' 
> (forum)".
> > >
> > > Walhahrabns gamelida
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Good suggestions, or how about *ana-dragk, na., from the verb
> > 'ana-drigkan' "get drunk".  Or maybe: dragk *ana-fahjata, cf. ON
> > áfengr "intoxicating", a Gothic ja-stem adjective perhaps?  Another
> > possibility *waiga, cognate with ON veig, arguably recorded in 
> runes
> > on the Körlin bracteate as an alternative to the usual runic 'alu'.
> > If 'in-ahei' is "sobriety, presence of mind", I guess the opposite
> > could be *us-ahei.  To emphasise some more specific psychoactive
> > quality, we could maybe use the suffix -izl, neuter a-stem, by 
> analogy
> > with 'swartizl' "ink", indicating a substance that turns what it
> > touches black (or just a substance that is black?).  Possibly 
> varying
> > the suffix according to whether the previous consonant was voiced, 
> so
> > for example: *gailisl', *hlasizl "euphoriant"; *wakrisl "stimulant"
> > (uswaknando *lubi, wakrjando *lubi); *linþizl, *slepizl, *swibnisl
> > (*swifnisl?) "narcotic"; *rimisizl 'tranquilizer'; *sibjisl, 
> *feinisl
> > "empathogen".  And thinking of more mundane things: 
> *skaunisl "purgative"?
> > 
> 
> That's ingenious. The only remark I dare is that *skaunisl seems to 
> hint more to a cosmetic make-up, doesn't it?


Oopsh, I meant *hrainisl, although I guess that could just as easily
be detergent or some sort of cleaning product.  (*saipa "soap"?)  Or
how about *hairþra-hrainisl "purgative", *wamba-hrainisl "emitic". 
Sorry folks!  Actually, I was more worried about the danger of
inspiring Gothic rap lyrics with that suffix...


> Thanks to those few who have read this message to the end without 
> falling asleep underway. Sorry, I have yet to learn to keep in 
> limits.
> 
> Ualarauans


Ah, who needs limits?  Having said that I'll probably find that half
of this gets automatically deleted from the archives due to being too
long.  Let's see.

Llama Nom





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