Loaned names, placenames, peoples' names in actual Gothic? (was Re: Antes?)

[ualarauans]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Michal Cigan <michalcigan at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Zdravim,
>   

Hails jath-Thu / Zdravim a Ta, Michal!

>   As I know, Antes is etonymum of iranian origin, but who  knows...
(germanic etymology
> introduced here is quite interesting) They  probably was a gens 
consisting of iranian and slavic
> element - probably  iranian, later slavised nobility  and slavic 
substart of  "commons". One of
> their leaders called Boz is mentioned also in The Lay  of The 
Warhost of Igor (Slovo o polku
> Igorevem - 12. ct.) -  whit  slavic "etnicity". They where finally 
eliminated probably by Avars,
> when they penetrated into carpathian basin - Antes dwelled in 
those  times probably on the
> eastern roots of the eastern (romanian) part of  Carpathian 
mountains. Anyway, Antes are
> generaly considered as one of  the early mediaval slavic gentes - 
at least by slavic archeology
> and  history.
> 
>   
>   Michal
> 

Yes, what I exactly meant is the Iranian etymology, with Germanic 
adopting and later re-interpreting it as "giant". As far as I know 
there's no Slavic reflex of the name, or there is some? Another 
example of an Iranian name borne by a Slavic nation is probably the 
Croats (Hrvat < Sarmat). But maybe it's after the Carpathians? In 
this case it must have gone through a Germanic "intermediate" mouth 
getting the /k/ and /p/ shifted into /x/ resp. /v/. Note 
Harvadhafjoell in the Hervarar saga that seems to represent a proto-
Germanic name of the Carpathians. What were it Gothic? My 
suggestions would be: *Harbatha-(bairga N. pl.) or *Harfatha- 
(depends on the IE stress, you know), the mountaineer dwellers being 
probably *Harbatha-warjos M. -ja Pl. or *Harbatheis M. -i Pl. (> 
Hrvati "Croats")?

> 
> > ualarauans <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
> >   
> >   The name itself is usually thought to be Iranian derived from 
the 
> >   same IE base ant- "limit", "end", which produced PG *andjaz, 
so 
> >   Antes could have meant roughly the same as Marcomanni or 
nowaday's 
> >   Ukrainians.
> 

Could there be a semantic succession between "Antes" 
and "Ukrainians" both meaning "frontier dwellers", perhaps connected 
somehow with the geography of the country? A possible succession of 
this sort for the region north of the Black Sea was suggested long 
ago (and not by me, of course) between Herodotus' division of 
Scythes into those practicing agriculture and those living in the 
wilds, Gothic *Griutuggos (*Grutiggos) and *Tairwiggos and, finally, 
Slavic (old Russian) Pol'ane (pole "field" you know) and DrEvl'ane 
(the same root as in *Tairwiggos, OCSl drEvo = Go. triu "tree", -E- 
being a long specific vowel). A late Byzantine author Leo Diaconus 
wrote about DrEvl'ane calling them Germanic, if I remember right. A 
part of *Tairwiggos left behind? A kind of substrate not fully 
assimilated? Inability of the Greek to discriminate between Slav and 
German(ic)? Or poor me confusing here if not everything?

P.S. Having written a draft of this I found ON Harvadhafjoell < 
early Grm. *xarfath- < original karpat- mentioned in Carl Edlund 
Anderson's Ph.D. dissert., 2.5.2. Goths & Huns, p. 42 (at )

Ualarauans






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